this is a picture, what it depicts is the kind of stuff people like Upton do b-c. I have no qualms about projecting this to the list: if Alison wants to ban me again I couldn't give a damn, what I do care about is falsity, and the obsession with status that certain persons obtrude, I love the notion that I am stalking Lawrence, and his legalistic threats, I think I have better things to do with my time than that.

yeah, Larry, your poems are FLAT.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Lawrence Upton 
  To: Alison Croggon 
  Cc: david bircumshaw 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 3:21 PM
  Subject: abusive list behaviour


  Dear Alison

  Apologies, but...

  I remarked b/c to someone a few hours ago that DB seems to be trying to goad me into responding to him and that I proposed to ignore him

  They replied to me recently that "He really cannot bear you to ignore him can he"

  The following is an email sent to David Bircumshaw and others b/c on 21 November 2004. I have edited it because it refers to others and I leave only the material relating to him. This makes it somewhat discontinuous, but it is clear that 18 months ago I had occasion to complain that he was pestering me and libelling me over something that went back further. Since then, or a little after (it may have taken a further email but I really can't be bothered to do a full research)

  Now it seems to be starting again - f/c, but in a little while it will be b/c, I believe, and not just to me

  It's unpleasant to be heckled in this way, like having a foul-mouthed little child abusing one or behaving in other inappropriate ways. It is unwarranted. It is affecting my ability and resolve to continue here, even at the low level of participation that I have chosen. I would like to continue here

  Before taking that step, leaving, I thought I might post this to the list (though it refers to incidents on another list, britpo), but that would only provoke endless self-maudlin pity or a transcript of the virtual web camera trained on his love affair. Hence, I appeal to you (cries from the audience - oh no you don't)

  I send the appeal with an apology for taking your time

  Note, I do not object as such to anyone thinking that my work is _Prose_, but a single word like that is clearly not intended to illuminate or help; there was a similar brief jibe without expansion on "Single figure" a little while back. It is abuse, personally motivated, not criticism

  These things, combined with what I take to be an attack yesterday - that I am a computer program (?!) and that I am hysterical, make it clear

  Yesterday's stuff seemed to come from nowhere; and now the odd charge that I posted a poem on a Tuesday which shows something unspecified about me and ownership and control seems to have arisen that I dared to post a poem where DB could read it

  I don't like being stalked.

  I have said this clearly to the self-obsessed DB and I have been scrupulous in ignoring him since saying it.

  I prefer not to feel forced to leave and would appreciate your help to that end. If I have offended DB in a way that he can reasonably complain of, then he should make me aware of it, politely, and I shall apologise. I believe, however, that he is being irrational. NB I do not wish to hear of matters long past in which DB believes himself wronged, because my stalker has suddenly decided that he is still cross

  In the future, I would prefer him not to comment on my writing because, though he knows a lot about poetry, in my judgement he also knows nothing about anything because of his foolishness, a view I would otherwise have kept to myself. If he wants to comment on my work,  nevertheless, I cannot stop him; but I believe it is implicit in our equiquette that he should speak with respect.

  If he doesn't feel any respect, then I fail to see why he would wish to comment and ask that he does not.

  All best



  L

  PS I am copying this to DB for clarity. I do not want to hear back from him. If *you think I am being unreasonable, I shall not pursue it.


  ===========================================

  Date: Sunday, November 21, 2004 12:35 PM


  David

  I am going to break my determination not to reply to you directly this once
  because it may just be that you have a cognitive problem. In case it is just
  your failure to understand a simple request, I am replying to you, merely to
  answer what you are saying to others about me.

  If you had not had the patronising arrogance to write to me again when I
  have repeatedly asked you not to, I would not ever have contacted you again.
  There is a history to that decision. The purpose of this email is to make it
  utterly clear to you that it is a decision. Stop stalking me.

  & I want you to stop saying mendacious things about me. I want you to stop
  sending me emails. If you do either again, it will be reported to your ISP
  as abuse.

  <cut>

  You have reported publicly what you believe to be true, without checking it
  with me, and that I call "malicious crap", especially when it is brought
  into an entirely different discussion. It was you festering still over some
  grievance from years ago and smearing me. Malicious crap.

  <cut>

  I don't mind people disagreeing with me. It is the manner of their
  disagreement.

  <cut>

  Having published these two untruths, you declared my supposed actions as
  "laughable and despicable"

  NB Despicable?

  You spoke of me getting away with one verbal atrocity after another

  You called me a bully.

  You can hardly, I feel, object to my reply. I say it again: malicious crap

  <cut>

  And now you persist

  <cut>

  First you accuse me above, but end blathering on about the hand of
  friendship.

  I get up this morning and find "Forgiveness". And more nonsense. I don't
  forgive you; go away

  <cut>

  I want you to stop libelling me