Jesus wept. And I can't blame him.

OK LAWRENCE IF IT'S A FUCKING APOLOGY YOU WANT THEN I APOLOGISE. ALRIGHT?

Be schtum, poor heart, be schtum.


Dave

(Lord protect us from those who would speak for us)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Upton" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: abusive list behaviour


Annie, I answer your proposal.

You make an assumption.

I do block DB. He goes straight into my deleted box, though sometimes I scan
his messages for my name before mass deleting because it seems that one of
his creation myths is that defaming me make his crops grow; and I resent
that as a false idea which damages me. I was told about the abuse by someone
who knows I do. I am now reading it to see what other vomit is projected at
me (behind my back if I take your advice).. When I am assured it has stopped
or been stopped, I shall block him again because of the poor signal to noise
ratio in his posts. The only way I shall know it has stopped is if he
apologises i.e. that will give me some assurance, at any rate. I am prepared
to settle for that. But it needs to be an explicit apology.I am unlikely to
get one, I realise, because he has already burned his boats by defying the
list in his assertion that he doesn't care whether or not he is unsubbed &
being unsubbed will feed his fantasy though it would give me some peace.
Make me a martyr, he screams - emotional blackmail of a kind.

Mr Bircumshaw has offered neither justification nor apology but only waffle
and has added further accusations and sentimentality / special pleading -
how dare you criticse me because I have disabled girlfriend. (Yes, I have
threatened to report him to his ISP, because he is breaking ISP rules in the
same way he breaks our rules; but I did not do that in the circumstances he
describes.

I did remark in the original call for his apology that I hoped not to hear
about matters in the past that he has suddenly decided still anger him;
unfortunately he has now referred back to matters in the past that he is
clearly still angry about. The anger however is simulated, I am sure. It
permits indulgence of the thesis that the world is irrationally or
maliciously against him and provides a smokescreen to cover his false
accusations of yesterday.

I shall happily block him again; but I do want to know that I am not being
libelled. Should I not object to what is said of me possibly behind my back
so that you may have a quiet life? That doesn't seem fair.

And I have no intention of taking the matter b/c because I have no intention
of continuing. I have been lied about and insulted f/c and I want an apology
f/c. I regret that this is happening, but I am slightly concerned that you
lump me and my attacker as _you both_. It is happening to me more than it is
happening to you. Why don't *you block one or both of us?

passing by on the other side of the street is how these things are allowed
to grow

I shall not post a poem today, but look forward to reading others; and I do
hope that DB now either justifies his attacks, not waffle, or apologises as
the list owner has suggested. I look forward to reading it this evening, or
a guarantee of complete silence

Please do not suggest that this can be dealt with by any other means than an
apology - though that would be a leap forward for human imagination I am
doubtful any other means exists. One can turn the other cheek, but that
doesn't solve the problem even if it does save the soul, and I have some
doubts about that

The problem lies (literally) with my unprovoked bully

all the best

L



  -----Original Message-----
  From: Annie McGann <[log in to unmask]>
  To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
  Date: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 1:13 AM
  Subject: Re: abusive list behaviour


  Why don't you both just block each other's e mail addresses so you don't
  annoy each other for a while?    Oh shut-up Annie. OK :-)






  >From: Lawrence Upton <[log in to unmask]>
  >Reply-To: Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry
and
  >             poetics <[log in to unmask]>
  >To: [log in to unmask]
  >Subject: Re: abusive list behaviour
  >Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 21:52:48 +0100
  >
  >Mr Bircumshaw may have nothing more to say; but I - the target for his
bile
  >- shall now speak.
  >
  >If he tried this in a slum he'd get kicked. I know. I grew up in one, but
I
  >don't try to special plea on the back of it
  >
  >He has today, amongst other things, without provocation or apparent
  >stimulus asserted I want to be a gatekeeper, a managerial controller, a
  >massager of who's in who's out (of poetry), of disengenuosness and
  >hypocrisy
  >
  >and has distorted completely what I said played the _I come from a slum
and
  >everyone's against me nonsense_
  >
  >and has pretended that I started the attack
  >
  >It would be one thing if he had offered any justification for these
  >remarks, but he just side stepped that invitation.
  >
  >He is entitled to think what he wants of my poetry and I know that he has
  >the ability to argue his case when there is a case and he can bothered.
  >
  >As to the distortion of what I said, I am content to let people judge as
he
  >published the originals that he was distorting.
  >
  >But there remains the assertion of control and hypocrisy and, I thought
at
  >one point, corruption, implying he knows things that have not been aired
  >here. These are calumnies and it is not good enough to shrug, not when
the
  >tone is one of _I am right_; because he is not right; he is making it up
  >
  >I want an apology because if I do not get one it is more likely it will
  >start again, as it has before. He has himself published here the evidence
  >of that which I chose to keep private for his benefit. I want an apology
or
  >a sustainable justification, not what seems to him or what is claimed to
  >have been heard. What gates do I keep? Whom do I control? What actions or
  >words of mine are hypocritical? Whose name do I massage?
  >
  >I have no such power. If he believes he has evidence that I am being
  >disengenuous, one of his charges, let him give it or retract the charge.
  >
  >I want that apology because I take this matter very seriously and find
his
  >inexplicable malice upsetting. I don't like being bullied and that is
what
  >is being attempted.