medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I have been off-line for nearly a week so this discussion is probably quite
stale for the rest of you. But I would like to know from those who know if
anyone credits the case that Robinson made in "Re-dating the New Testament"
for John as the first gospel?
Jo Ann McNamara
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Martin" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: [M-R] Gospel order (pre-medieval)
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
The decision by the "early fathers" about which writings were canonical and
which were not was _not_ based _solely_ on internal evidence. If by "early
fathers" you mean the fourth century councils, then they were depending both
on internal evidence and external traditions about who wrote what when,
e.g., the sort of thing Papias was drawing on and which Irenaeus and Clement
and Eusebius reported. If by "early fathers" you mean Papias, Clement,
Irenaeus (2nd-3rdc) then they too were drawing both on external and internal
evidence--appealing to Polycarp as a disciple of John--presumably basing
their statements on information derived from people they knew who knew
people who knew the prinicipals in the first century process.
These external evidence reports do not totally agree with each other and
there was contrary "external" evidence running through Gnostic circles etc.
Irenaeus refutes the alternative Gnostic "external account" by employing
both external and internal eviidence. So I think it is fair to say that
both were used. External evidence is not by itself authoritative--it needs
to be tested and sifted and compared, as does internal evidence. Both are
susceptible to the baises of the scholar doing the sifting and interpreting.
And 19thc Markan priority and 20thc dating schemas all have a locus in time
and space, within this or that sectarian, ideological framework. If
historical-critical method can be legitimately applied to first and
second-century documents then turnabout is fair play--taking into account
the prejudices and biases of 19thc and 20thc German and Anglo-American
biblical scholarship as these circiles themselves try to take account of the
biases and prejudices and assumptions of the "early fathers" who wrote about
the order of the writing of the gospels and distinguished canonical from
non-canonical Scripture. I find it amusing that modern scholars somehow get
their knickers in a knot when their locus in time and space and confession
and sect (and the modern university is a very sectarian place, whether
postmodern, Marxist, Enlightenment or whatever) is taken into account as a
way of relativizing the "objecitivity" and probative force of their
"consensus" abou this or that explanatory model.
Dennis Martin
>>> [log in to unmask] 9/13/2005 6:21 PM >>>
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Dennis Martin wrote:
>
> Papias (early 2nd c., but transmitted indirectly via Irenaeus and
> Eusebius, if I recall correctly)) and Clement of Alexandria (late 2nd
> c./ early 3rd) refer to Matthaean priority, if memory serve me
> correctly. The Markan priority (with an earlier "sayings"
> collection) hypothesis came to dominate in the mid-to-late 19thc and
> is based on internal evidence, setting aside the external evidence of
> the early centuries. The vast majority who hold the Markan priority
> believe, of course, that they have good reason to set aside the
> external evidence of Papias and Clement.
Don't knock internal evidence: it was how the Early Fathers assigned
authorship to the Gospels in the first place :-)
John Briggs
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