medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: Cecil T Ault <[log in to unmask]>
> Quite right! The term Gothic came into being much later as a term of
contempt by those who found it completely out of sync with the exact
proportions, or so thought to be, of the Renaissanc style.
i believe that the best (and certainly most exhaustive) survey of the
historiography of "Gothic" as a Construct is Paul Frankl's _The Gothic:
literary sources and interpretations through eight centuries_ (Princeton U.P.,
1960), 916 [!!] pp.
i thought that there was a revised edition of this but can't seem to find it.
as far as i am aware there is nothing similar for "Romanesque", which is, in
any event, a much more recent Construct.
>As for it being the first Gothic church, one could argue, for others, as
southern France is full of churches of late Romanesque (e.g. Autun)
Autun ?
you mean St. Lazare of Autun, of Gislebertus Fame?
in *Southern* France??
Central Burgundy = Southern France ????
"late" "Romanesque" ??
1130s-40s = "late" "Romanesque" ????
is this more Bannisterianesque terminology, Tom?
> which look very Gothic for their pointed arches, high ceilings,
facades
yes, if you define "Gothic" by those criteria, then any building which has
them will "look very Gothic".
i note that the "ceilings" ["vaults" in art hysterical Jargon] of Cluny III
are as high as most non-cathedral "Gothic" buildings.
and virtually all buildings have "facades"; though some have more facades than
others.
>and even flying buttresses
"flying buttresses" ??
at Autun ????
or on any other "Southern" French "late" "Romanesque" church ?????
picture me, please.
>but the essential features of Suger's addition was the opening up of the
interior spaces through the new, Gothic engineering.
not much of a sense of "interior space" in Suger's Westwork; but the layout of
the choir and, especially, the apsidial chapels does, indeed, represent a
somewhat different "solution" to the problems of spatial articulation in what
is, after all, the most complex part of a middlevil church.
and, to a certain extent, this was made possible because of "the new, Gothic
engineering".
>Anyhow, St. Denis is accorded the distinction of having been the first Gothic
church by those who study architectural styles.
traditionally, and according to the over-simplified Paradigm used,
particularly, in elementary pedagogy, yes.
>The distinction is not an easy one;
no, it isn't.
especially if one is interested in avoiding both Circularity in one's
reasoning and being Tyranized by one's own Construct.
>in the 19th century it was decided that a Gothic church would have:
> 1-pointed arches,
> 2-rib vaults,
> 3-flying buttresses.
one way to construct one's Construct, certainly.
> This leaves out domestic architecture entirely.
a good point.
it also leaves out a multiplicity of buildings from the very late 11th c. and
first half of the 12th c. which have been lost to us *without a trace*,
leaving only St. Suger's work with which to establish our Circular Paradigm.
>Also, there remains the problem of Norman architecture. Durham cathedral has
all three of the above (including #3 though you can't see them from below) and
it is still Romanesque.
if you define it that way, yes.
>Alas, it has load bearing walls. So, it goes.
indeed it does.
on and on and on.
> The Gothic actually was the last great effort to achieve height and
light using traditional materials.
?
>Not until we get steel and abolish load bearing walls altogether
?????
i can see neither steel nor "load bearing walls" here :
http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/arch/gothic/chapelle01.jpg
http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/arch/gothic/chapelle08.jpg
http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/arch/gothic/chapell2.jpg
http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/arch/gothic/chapelle05.jpg
nor here :
http://romanes.free.fr//Saint_Germer_de_Fly_0005-2.jpg
http://romanes.free.fr//Saint_Germer_de_Fly_0004-2.jpg
the use of steel rather than stone would make a trivial difference here, i
would submit.
far more significant for a workable definition of the Construct of "Gothic"
would be a factor which your too-materialistically oriented secondary sources
seem to have overlooked.
the "transparent rationality" present here :
http://romanes.free.fr//Saint_Germer_de_Fly_0005-2.jpg
wherein all the significant elements of the building are made visible from the
pavement to the keystones --a complex (yet rationally transparent) structure
of wall responds which "telegraphs" what is to be found above, at the highest
levels of the building.
i think that, in this respect, i'll take Panofsky
Erwin Panofsky, _Gothic architecture and scholasticism_ (New York: Meridian
Books, 1957) xvi, 156 pp.
[available on-line to subscribing institutions here:
http://ets.umdl.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=acls;cc=acls;idno=heb01070.0001.001;view=toc
]
over Fletcher, any day.
even though there has never been a more impassioned Champion of St. Suger than
was Panofsky : "Thus Early Scholasticism was born at the same moment and in
the same environment in which Early Gothic architecture was born in Suger's
Saint-Denis." (p.4)
>I'm not sure that the very high stuff we see in the big cities
is any improvement over Wells or Chartres.
well, to my eye, Chartes is every bit as much a "Romanesque" building as it is
a "Gothic" one.
but, then, what the hell do i know about it?
i just make this stuff up as i go along.
best from here,
christopher
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