medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
i'm confused by this discussion. i understand that "fertur dixisse" meant
to provide a distancing mechanism, "undermin[ing] any straightforward
acceptance of it." but it cd just be a way for caesarius to distance
himself and his church from so troubling a statement, rather than a way of
saying it's not clear he said it.
or am i wrong that he might have found this particular expression troubling
morally (as Galindo/Prudentius might have found the slaughter of the
coniuratio of 859 troubling). in which case, there's no problem reading
the account straightforwardly as widely reflective of an ecclesiastical
position (ie caesarius likes the line whether it's true or not).
how are we supposed to read the story if not straightforwardly? that he
might have said it, but we don't know, but caesarius is telling us it... why?
r
At 10:13 PM 11/11/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
>One could also have a look at Elaine Graham-Leigh, "Justifying Deaths: The
>Chronicler Pierre des
>Vaux-de-Cernay and the Massacre of Béziers", _Mediaeval Studies_ 63
>(2001), 283-303. Regardless of what Arnaud may have actually said or
>done, the saying attributed to him is presented by Caesarius in a way that
>undermines any straightforward acceptance of it.
>
>Yet it clearly _has_ been widely accepted. And without qualification. So
>perhaps, even though this acceptance would seem to involve a naive reading
>(or wilful misreading) of C., it has an authoritative sponsor. And as the
>quote is given very often in modern French, perhaps that sponsor is/was
>francophone. Hence my query to Terrill about a source for the _French_
>version he cited. I'm looking for francophone intermediaries, not the
>Latin original.
>
>Best again,
>John Dillon
>
>On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:18:44 -0500
> Nicole Schulman <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> >
> >>And
> >>do you have a source for this French version? There's a Latin one in
> >>Caesarius of Heisterbach's closely contemporary _Dialogus miraculorum_,
> >>dist. 5, cap. 21. But that's put in the mouth of a character in a dialogue
> >>and is preceded by the distancing formula "fertur dixisse", leading one to
> >>suppose that Caesarius (who is ordinarily concerned to indicate the
> >>relative reliability of his sources) is not vouching for the accuracy of
> >>this particular piece of reported discourse. Best, John Dillon
> >
> >The French version comes from Heisterbach who is its sole source.
> >
> >And, yes, there is every reason to doubt its authenticity. The other
> >accounts (that were more contemporaneous) do not mention that Arnaud
> >had any such role in the massacre. Sibly & Sibly have a very
> >sensible discussion of the whole massacre in an appendix to their
> >translation of Vaux-de-Cernay's History of the Albigensian Crusade,
> >which is worth a gander.
> >--
> > Nicole Morgan Schulman n.m.schulman <at> sympatico.ca
>
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