medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I remember reading in a medieval costume/textile reference (can't
remember which, it's been a long time, sorry) that there was indeed a
switch in the 16c from grey to brown. However, it was mentioned very
much in passing with no explanation, so I don't know how reliable that
is. The idea of the original habits being simply undyed wool makes sense
to me (as does the idea of starting out with a simple stipulation that
the wool be undyed, and later, perhaps for uniformity's or
distinctiveness' sake, moving to the definite establishment of a
shade/shades) -- and I have to imagine that there was some point in the
very early history of the order when even that much wasn't settled yet.
Hard to believe there isn't a record pertaining to the matter somewhere?
Although I've noticed how difficult questions of what a color name
actually represented in the past can be to determine -- when was purple
actually what we think of as purple, and when was it more of a dark red,
etc...so even if you tracked down a reference that said the habit was
specifically "brown" or "grey" at X date that may not necessarily settle
the issue.
--Sarah Roark
-----------------------------------------------------------
"As for 21st-century dames being confusing -- that's only
if you can't handle a woman being your equal (or superior,
as the case may be). Since you've had since the 60's
to get used to this idea, I fail to see the dilemma."
--Judy McGuire, *Dategirl* (*Seattle Weekly* 2/12)
-----Original Message-----
From: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Katherine French
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 12:45 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] Franciscan habit colour - grey or brown
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
culture
might it also not be simply undyed wool which is sometimes grey and
sometimes brown? and that grey and brown become distinctions later? i
don't mean to imply that medieval people don't make the distinction
between brown and grey, but rather on sheep, and with undyed wool, brown
and grey often merge and blend. so it might be region and what kind of
sheep produce the wool. undyed seems to be the important issue for
medieval franscicans. kit french At 03:31 PM 2/21/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>culture
>
>I would agree that the early Franciscans wore undyed wool (which is
>what the habit attributed to St. Francis at Assisi looks like to me.
>But I would demur that today brown is worn by whatever branch the
>Franciscan belongs to. Orders are very proud of their distinctive
>habits and branches perhaps more so (see Erasmus's amusing screed on
>this issue in The Praise of Folly). Conventuals still wear black,
>Capuchins brown , Observants a darker brown and so on and so on. jw
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Chris Laning
>Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 6:27 PM
>To: John Wickstrom
>Subject: Re: Franciscan habit colour - grey or brown
>
>
>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>culture
>
>I can't cite sources at the moment, but my understanding is that the
>original habits were supposed to be "ash colored," which could be more
>grayish or more brownish depending on which shades (and in what
>proportions) of the natural colors of wool happened to be in the mix
>when it was spun and woven. St. Clare's mantle, pieces of which were
>used to patch one of St. Francis's cowls, is about halfway between
>light gray and brown (though of course it may have faded with time).
>
>After the split in the 16th century, and perhaps even before, I would
>suspect that depicting Francis in a decidedly gray or brown habit might
>well have spoken of the ideological affinities of the artist or patron
>:).
>
>I believe also that the Conventuals by this time were wearing black.
>And of course in the present day, brown has become so strongly linked
>with the Franciscans that I believe it's the commonest color now,
>regardless of which branch the wearer is from. (Apologies for
>off-the-top-of-my-head guesswork; I'm at work, my references, such as
>they are, are at home.)
>
>BTW, if anyone knows of works specifically about the clothing of
>medieval religious orders, I'd love to have citations. Desiree Koslin's
>PhD dissertation (which I have) is about the only one I know of.
>
>____________________________________________________________
>0 Chris Laning
>| <[log in to unmask]>
>+ Davis, California
>____________________________________________________________
>
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