medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Christopher, thanks for the comments. This is an issue I need to look into
further. Yes, I recall that the court of the papal legate was important,
particularly in the later middle ages in France and England, which I'm more
familiar with. I think it became an increasing area of tension, since cases
tended to go there that the secular or royal courts wanted to hear. I am
wondering if "appeals to Rome" were in fact often heard in the resident
legate's court.
With further regard to the monastic "papal vicarship," my instinct from
looking at Desiderius for some time is that, yes, the powers were vague and
the office was, fundamentally, a perk. given to a prominent abbot to exploit
various houses as he could or would "in the name of the pope".
Perhaps the most fascinating example of the use of this title lies among the
many forgeries of Peter the Deacon, the famous chronicler and champion of
12th century Monte Cassino (by this time somewhat in eclipse from its former
days of glory under Desiderius).
He forged a series of documents which purported to show that the abbot of
Glanfeuil (a small Benedictine house on the Loire close to Angers and
Orleans) was to be "papal vicar of all France" as Desiderius had earlier
been vicar of Italy. He forged another document which stated that Glanfeuil
had always been a dependent daughter house of Monte Cassino. The point here
was to assert the authority of Monte Cassino, through Glanfeuil, over all
the abbeys in France, a move that was sure to irritate if not astonish the
Cistercian and Cluniac leadership there.
best,
jw
-----Original Message-----
From: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Christopher
Crockett
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 2:00 PM
To: John Wickstrom
Subject: Re: [Re: [M-R] [Re: [M-R] saints of the day 16. September]]
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
thanks, John.
"John B. Wickstrom" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>Papal vicars are indeed different animals than papal legates.
i either never came across the distinction before or, more likely, didn't
realise that i'd come across it when i came across it, wherever that might
have been.
>The latter, as they developed anyway from the 11th century to the modern
period were temporary and then permanent ambassadors to various countries
and
courts.
my meager understanding comes from 12th c. french sources (and the
collection
of them by Wilhelm Janssen (_Die päpstlichen Legaten in Frankreich, vom
Schisma Anaklets II. bis zum Tode Coelestins III. (1130-1198), Köln : Böhlau
Verlag, 1961).
i've got an important bishop of Chartres (Godfrey of Leves, 1115-49)
who was legate for France for much of his tenure, and i was just wondering
what, exactly, that might have entailed in terms of his traveling around,
corresponding etc.
seems like i recall in later 12th and 13th c. charters the practice of
settling disputes by the pope having his legate appointing a court of three
or
so "good men" to hear a case, and i've always considered dispute settlement
to
have been one of their main duties.
Godfrey of Chartres is to be seen at various important occasions --like at
Suger's dedication of his new church-- but i can never be sure whether he's
there as just a friend, an influential churchman, papal legate, or what.
>The term papal vicar is a rarer appointment, so far as I can tell, and
refers to someone exercising the power of the pope (as the term applies).
sounds like there wouldn't be much call for a "papal vicar" in Northern
France, where the pope had even less "power" or "rights" than in Southern
Italy.
?
best to all from here,
christopher
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