medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
"Ms Brenda M. Cook" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>I suspect that to the mediaeval mind it was more important to celebrate an
event regularly every year than to be bureaucratically accurate as to date -
something which was not always known.
yes.
certainly "dating" had a somewhat different connotation and usefulness than it
does chez nous.
the overwhelming majority of pre-1200 charters are undated (and, frequently,
undatable), for example.
>I am specifically thinking of the discrepancies in the death dates recorded
for the same person in different necrologies...and the fact that members of
the same family are frequently commemorated on the same day in necrologies -
they can't ALL have died together !
no, indeed.
never having seen mention of this phenomenon in the literature (i'd welcome a
reference from someone), i like to call these "cluster obituaries" --several
families not always on the same day, but all within a few days of each other,
usually in the necrology of the same house, but sometimes in those of several
houses in the region.
without the encomberance of any actual evidence, it seems to me that an
explanation for this might be found in the fact that many of the folks i see
in these "cluster obits" from the Chartrain are minor nobility from the
outlying region --the families were "seated" in villages and castrums some
kilometres from the city and it seems reasonable to me that there would be a
particular convenience in being able to make a single trip each year into Town
to celebrate sucessive massses of deceased members.
(a good occassion for a family reunion, also.)
the best examples of this i've come across are in the rich necrology of the
benedictine house of St. Peter's of Chartres, and especially the entries for
the family known by the cognomen of _Canard/Chenard_, which was "seated" out
"en plien Beauce," as they say, in the village of Louville-la-Chenard.
Udo Chenard was abbot of St. Peter's from 1130 to 1150 and, i'm fairly sure,
was largely responsible for the half dozen or so entries for his family
members in the abbey's necrology --most clustered around a few days, as i
recall.
Udo also went to somewhat extraordinary lengths (at least in terms of the
documents *which survive*) to establish his own anniversary
(http://www.ariadne.org/centrechartraine/abbeys/st-peter/CSP391-2.htm ),
largely paid for with property from other members of his family which he had
been instrumental in having donated to St. Peter (i.e., as best i can make
out, he used property which belonged to the Saint/abbey to endow his own
personal anniversary).
i can't recall the details, but seem to remember that there was some evidence
to suggest that the family "cluster" of obits was more or less centered around
Udo's anniversary --clearly he, as abbot of a great and powerful monastery,
would have been the most important (clerical) member of the family.
>I suspect that the day in a necrology when the death is commemorated is the
anniversary of the day the NEWS of the death of the first recorded, or most
socially significant member of the family, reached the ecclesiastical
institution, and was the anniversary of the first requiem mass rather than of
the actual death. (The rest of the family got added later.)
yes, that's my feeling too.
and, of course, the same fellow would commonly be entered into different
necrologies on different days, the difference sometimes a function of the
distance the given house was from the actual place of death.
some exceptions, but, as a rule it appears to me that the day of the arrival
of the news was good enough --the "actual" date (which we hold to be so
important) was secondary.
the possibility exists, however, that having an anniversary mass for the same
guy (or girl) on different days would allow members of the family to attend
more than one ceremony in more than one house on the same trip in from the
Sticks.
the Chenards of Louville come in to Chartres for a few days once a year,
attend masses for various family members in both the abbey of St. Peter on the
south side of town and that of St. John on the north side.
and, maybe, hit the cathedral a lick or two on their way from one house to the
other...
"Jones, Dr G.R." <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>Note also the numbers of saints of the same name commemorated on the same or
subsequent days.
i've often noted this, thanks to Phyllis' daily missives.
something of a different mechanism at work here than in the phenomenon of
"cluster obits," i would suspect --though i have little idea of what that
mechanism could have been.
always puts me in mind of those "ossuaries" from medieval cemeteries --every
few centuries you have to dig up all the bones and group them together, to
make room for Newcommers.
how exactly this would work in terms of the creation of Calendars, i have no
idea.
best to all from here,
christopher
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