medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Pour faire r+AOk-ponse +AOA- Christopher Crockett et terminer ... le sujet de cette
discussion n+AOk-e sur le nom d'Herv+AOk- :
1) La pr+AOk-sence de Mabon, +AOk-v+AOo-que de Saint-Pol-de-L+AOk-on, +AOA- Saint-P+AOg-re de
Chartres en 954 ne peut +AOo-tre surprenante. Nordoard de Rennes assiste
+AOk-galement +AOA- cette +ACI-restauration+ACI-. A la mort d' Alain Barbe Torte (952) qui
avait +AOk-pous+AOk- la soeur de Thibaud le Tricheur, comte de Chartres, c'est ce
dernier qui eut en charge l'+AOk-ducation de Drogon, fils du duc de Bretagne. En
fin d' ann+AOk-e 958 eut lieu +AOA- Verron, sur les confins de l'Anjou et de la
Touraine, une assembl+AOk-e avec Thibaud le Tricheur, Foulques le Bon, nombre de
chefs bretons (Nomino+AOk-, Gestin, etc.), l'+AOk-v+AOo-que de Nantes Hesdren (ancien
pr+AOk-lat de Saint Pol de L+AOk-on ).
Vers 960 Mabon (comme Hesdren) va se retirer +AOA- l'abbaye de Saint-Benoit-sur
Loire (Fleury) o+APk- il apporte des reliques de saint Paul (de L+AOk-on).
+AFs-Voir par ex. Aimoin de Fleury, Miracula sancti benedicti+AF0-.
Parlant de l' abbaye de Saint-P+AOg-re, nous pouvons aussi signaler que c'est en
ce lieu que fut enterr+AOk- (saint) Gilduin, chanoine de Dol (+- 27 janvier
1077). Sa translatio y +AOk-tait f+AOo-t+AOk-e au 9 mai (ex. Missel XIII+AOg- s., Chartres
BM 521).
La pr+AOk-sence des Bretons +AOA- Saint-P+AOg-re peut aussi +AOo-tre remarqu+AOk-e par la
notation neumatique utilis+AOk-e sur certains des livres liturgiques de cette
abbaye (Chartres 110 ou 152, XI+AOg-me s.) o+APk- voisinent neumes bretons et
fran+AOc-ais. Au reste le graduel Chartres 47, qui +AOk-tait +AOA- l'usage de l'abbaye
de Saint-P+AOg-re d+AOg-s le XI+AOg-me s. vient de Bretagne.(Michel HUGLO, Le domaine de
la notation bretonne)
Un catalogue des manuscrits de cette abbaye (ed. Bibl. Ecol. des Chartes, 5,
1854) porte au n+ALA- 56 : De partibus orationis tractatus, scottisca littera :
manuscrit d'origine bretonne?
Pour en terminer avec ces relations Chartres +AD0- Bretagne, pr+AOk-cisons que le
dioc+AOg-se de Tr+AOk-guier avait adopt+AOk- d+AOg-s le XIII+AOg-me s. l'usage liturgique
chartrain.
2) Pour le nom de Herv+AOk- dans les chartes bretonnes voir par exemple le
Cartulaire de Landevennec qui donne pour le d+AOk-but du XI+AOg-me s. +ACI-Haerueu+ACI-,
pour le XIII+AOg- s. +ACI-Herveus+ACI- (ch. 31, 47, 50)
+ACI-Nous sommes des nains juch+AOk-s sur des +AOk-paules de g+AOk-ants+ACI-
Bernard de Chartres.
jean louis raphalen
pecia+AEA-wanadoo.fr
----- Original Message -----
From: +ACI-Christopher Crockett+ACI- +ADw-bccrockett+AEA-USA.NET+AD4-
To: +ADw-MEDIEVAL-RELIGION+AEA-JISCMAIL.AC.UK+AD4-
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 5:50 PM
Subject: +AFs-M-R+AF0- 17 juin : saint Herv+AOk-
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Dear Jean Louis,
many thanks for your typically very informed response.
there are elements of this subject which go beyond the specific question
involved (the nature and origins of the name which appears in the latin
documents as +AF8-Herveus+AF8-), and, as such, may be of broader interest to others
on
this list who have occasion to make use of Latin primary sources (such as
charters) for whatever purpose, so i will respond in some detail, at the
risk
of being typically tedious (+ACo-that+ACo- constitutes fair warning, folks).
+AD4-Mais ma premi+AOg-re phrase +AOk-tait : +IBw-le nom m+AOo-me du saint breton Herv+AOk- pose
probl+AOg-me+IB0- +ACEAIQAhACE-
yes, i saw that, lu et approv+AOk-e, and admire your skill at understatement.
+AD4-...le nom du p+AOg-re de saint Herv+AOk- est +IBw-Hauvion+IB0-...
now, +ACo-there+ACo- is where i have a problem.
i +ACo-assume+ACo- that the historical personage now known as +IBw-saint Herv+AOkgHQ- does
+ACo-not+ACo- appear in the contemporary documents as +IBw-Herv+AOkgHQ- ?
my question here is +ACo-what+ACo- is the form of this saint's name in the charters
???
+IBwAXw-Huavion+AF8gHQ-
or +IBwAXw-Herveus+AF8gHQ-
or +ACo-what+ACo-, exactly ???
transliterating the name into modern French (especially some +AF8-nom fictif+AF8-
which doesn+IBk-t even exist in the modern language, except in the scholarly
literature) may have some purpose for, say, the writers of historical
fiction,
but is of absolutely +ACo-no use whatever+ACo- to historians, it seems to me, and
just
+IBw-mudies the waters.+IB0-
i suggest that we just keep to the forms which we have --presumably only
that
found in the Latin of the charters, whether contemporary or not.
and neither +IBw-Herv+AOkgHQ- nor +ACI-Huavion+ACI- appear in the documents.
or do they ??
obviously, i am very ignorant where linguistic matters are concerned.
among the very few resources which i have found to deal with these questions
are the older C. Egger, +AF8-Lexicon Nominum Virorum et Mulierum+AF8- (Rome, 1957)
and the much more detailed, but very difficult to use, Marie-Th+AOk-res+AOg-se
Morlet, +AF8-Les Noms de Person sur le Territoire de l+IBk-ancienne Gaule du VIe au
XIIe si+AOg-cle+AF8- (Paris, 1968).
i cannot find any of the Breton name forms you mention in either Egger or
Morlet. (perhaps this is because they are +ACI-Celtic+ACI- and these works are only
concerned with +ACI-Germanic+ACI- names??)
however, Morlet lists (p. 127, column 2) +AF8-Herveus+AF8-, apparently as a variant
(?
i +ACo-cannot+ACo- understand her classification system) of +AF8-Her+ACo-i+ACo-veus+AF8-.
which seems logical enough, to me.
the earliest appearance of the latter name she lists (+AF8-Heriveus+AF8-) is from
Besan+AOc-on, +ACI-a. 757-762+ACIAOw- and there are a couple of early 10th c. appearances
in the Parisis and Remois as well.
+AF8-Herveus+AF8- first appears --according to Morlet-- in a charter from the priory
of St. Symphorien of Autun in 1055, and in the Chartrain in the early 12th
century (though this latter is clearly not the earliest appearance in that
area, as i have noted in my previous post).
now, have i completely misunderstood you, Jean Louis, or are you not
suggesting that +AF8-Herveus+AF8- is a later form of the Breton names which you have
gleaned from the 10th century charters?
if so, is your opinion based on linguistic evidence?
certainly Morlet is not an infallable authority on the earliest occurances
of
names --as we have seen with her +AF8-Herveus+AF8- entry-- but is she also mistaken
+ACo-linguistically+ACo- here?
+AD4-Les relations de Chartres avec la Bretagne... se concr+AOk-tisent par le
mariage
d+IBk-Alain Barbe Torte (+-952) avec la soeur de Thibaut le Tricheur.
thanks for this reference --my +IBw-knowledge+IB0- doesn+IBk-t extend very much
before the 11th century, which is, obviously, a potentially fatal flaw.
clearly, the Breton relations, which i can see when the sun comes up over
the
documentary +IBw-historical horizon+IB0- in the Chartrain in the early 11th
century, had deeper roots+ADs- and this is surely one of them.
i find your idea of Bretons +IBw-moving East+IB0- in response to the Norse
invasions to be very interesting in this respect.
+AD4AWw-citing Ren+AOk- Merlet +ACY- l+IBk-abb+AOk- Alexandre Clerval+IBk-s +AF8-Manuscrit chartrain
du XI+AOg-me si+AOg-cle :+AF0- +IBw-vers 954, Mabbo, +AOk-v+AOo-que de Saint-Pol de L+AOk-on
assiste +AOA- la restauration de l+IBk-abbaye de Saint-P+AOg-re en Val+AOk-e.+IB0-
i think that we must be very careful here.
Ren+AOk- Merlet was a graduate of the +AMk-cole des Chartes and the sucessor to his
father, the very learned Lucien, as archiviste of the d+AOk-partement+ADs-
and l+IBk-abb+AOk- Clerval was certainly a scholar of no mean accomplishments (as
his classic Les +AMk-coles de Chartres demonstrates).
however, both of these men were actively engaged in the creation and
propagation of the Myth/Cult (secular and spiritual) of Chartres and its
monuments which was +AF8-au courant+AF8- at the end of the 19th century+ADs- and their
work has been quite rightly subjected to considerable corrective criticism
in
recent years (cf., for example, the remarks on R. Merlet in Jan van der
Meulan+IBk-s annotated Bibliography and of Richard Southern+IBk-s meticulous --if
perhaps overdone-- deconstruction of the excesses of Clerval+IBk-s fabrication
of the Chartrain school+AFs-s+AF0- as The Predominant School of Europe).
in my experience, both scholars are frequently given to hyperbole and a
certain sloppiness, due to their excessive enthusiam to promote all things
Chartrain.
saying that the Bishop of L+AOk-on in this charter, +IBw-assiste +AOA- la
restauration+IB0- of the great Benedictine house of Chartres is stretching the
reality of the world revealed in this charter more than is permissable from
its text, it seems to me.
among other things, i note that +IBwAXw-Mabbo, Paulinani Britanni+AOY- episcopus+AF8gHQ-
is only one among quite a number +AFs-too many+ACEAXQ- of witnesses to the document in
question (Cart. St. P., pp. 49-54), which, as far as i can see, is (or
purports to be) a charter of Bishop Raginfredus (perhaps 954-960).
but, in reality, this charter is suspiciously long and quite probably a
fabrication of the Monk Paul, who was responsible for the reconstruction of
the abbey+IBk-s document base (+IBw-cartulary+IB0-) at the end of the +ACo-11th+ACo- century
and whose +IBw-cartulary+IB0- +AFs-known today only from early modern copies+AF0- has been
subject to much-deserved scepticism.
(at first glance several of the witness in this charter+IBk-s list appear to be
suspect to me, and, clearly, Bishop Mabbo+IBk-s position in the witness list
--+ACo-after+ACo- quite a number of lesser folks, including laymen-- is +ACo-very+ACo-
suspect. i note that this is the only appearnace of Mabbo in the published
edition of the +IBw-cartulary+IB0- of St. Peter's as we have it, but i assume that
the historical existence of this bishop is known from other, Breton,
sources.
?)
at best, from the evidence of this charter (even assuming that we can accept
it as genuine, which is very unlikely in its present form), Bishop Mabbo was
to be found --for whatever reason-- in the entourage (or at the court) of
Bishop Raginfredus, witnessing whatever episcopal +AF8-acta+AF8- might have been
happening in that court at the time he was there.
+AD4AWw-from Jean le Marchant+IBk-s +AF8-Miracles+AF8-, v. 1252-62 : +AF0-
+AD4-...
+AD4-A chartres ont leur forteresce+ADs-
Clouse des foses Sainte Foi+ADs-
...
+AD4-Qui a non la Bretonnnerie+ADs- Ce sont Bretons,
n+AOk- de Breteigne,
let+IBk-s see.
here we have an early 13th century source which tells us of a +IBw-Breton+IB0-
+AF8-quatier/rue+AF8- in or just outside the city walls (i assume that the +IBw-fosez
Sainte Foi+IB0- were just beyond the newly built +AFs-1180+IBk-s??+AF0- walls of the city,
in front of the interesting church of Ste. Foi, West of the cathedral).
and that the +IBw-Bretons+IB0- who lived there were +IBw-n+AOk- en Breteigne.+IB0-
even if we assume that +IBw-n+AOk- en Breteigne+IB0- may be translated --into
English-- as meaning something like +IBw-of Breton origin+IB0- (rather than,
literally, as +IBw-Born in Brittany+IB0-), the fact that the Bretons were more or
less confined to a specific +AF8-quatier+AF8- (perhaps originally +ACo-outside+ACo- of the
walls of the city????) in the early 13th century would seem to suggest that
they were not +AFs-yet+AF0- fully integrated into the community --on the contrary,
rather like the Jews, who lived on a street named after them in the Basse
Ville, but without the +IBw-excuse+IB0- of having a separate faith.
could this be possible if there were a large influx of Bretons in the course
of the 10th century, nearly 300 years before??
+AD4-Dans la toponymie nous trouvons +AOk-galment +IBw-Brittonaria,+IB0- La Bretonni+AOg-re
(canton de Gallardon), Relation avec HERVE ???
bien s+APs-r.
or, rather, +IBw-avec +AF8-Herveus+AF8gHQ- :-)
but, what, exactly, is that +ACI-relation+ACI- ?
if i remember correctly, there are several folks with the cognomen +AF8-brito+AF8-
who
appear in the same context as the Lords of Gallardon in the various
Chartrain
+AF8-fonds+AF8-, especially that of the near-by important abbey of St. Mary of
Josaphat at L+AOg-ves from the early 12th century.
hence, my interest in this question.
by the way, here are a few of the appearances of the name +IBw-Herv+ACogHQ- in the
CSP:
Herveus, 76, 83, 124, 142, 329, 330+ADs-
+AFs---abbas Majoris Monisterii, 660-1+ADsAXQ- (this person is, i believe from a cadet
branch of the LePuiset family, where the name also appears.)
--archidiaconus, 401+ADs-
--de Caletulo, 195+ADs-
--cantor S. Aniani, 434+ADs-
--de Carnoto, 732+ADs-
--de Castello, 688+ADs-
--comes Mauritaniae, 199+ADs-
--comes Nivernensis et dominus Aloye, 678+ADs-
--decanus, 463+ADs-
--dominus de Galardone, 676+ADs-
--filius Herberti, 132+ADs-
--filius Herberti, militis de Galardone, 224+ADs-
--frater Gaszonis de Spar, 371+ADs-
--de Galardone, 31, 42, 413, 447, 590+ADs-
--de Manu Villari, 567+ADs-
--de Meno Villari, 517, 559+ADs-
--pater Fulcherii, canonici S. Martini, 204+ADs-
--de Rua Nova, 443+ADs-
--vicecomes, 96, 123.
my apologies for the length, should anyone still be awake.
best to all from here,
christopher
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