medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
"Raymond V.Lavoie" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>Might the valuation also refer to the value of the glebe --the
"endowment" of the church (which could be anything from a single field and
garden the priest was expected to work himself all the way up to considerable
estates),
yes, quite right --the church (and here we seem to be talking mainly about
"parish" churches, i suppose) *could* own land itself, though the term "glebe"
doesn't show up in my French sources very often, i must say.
>income from which went 100% to the upkeep of the church?
i don't know about this, however.
but, i'm really only very lightly familiar with pre-1250 or so matters, and
what went on in those Daze was not necessarily what we find when the sources
get *much* more common and detailed, towards the end of the M.A.
*plus* (and even more important perhaps) the damned Document Base for that
period is quite badly skewed.
the condition on the ground in the Chartrain Beauce in, say, the 11th-12th cc.
seems to me to be rather in the nature of a "frontier" in many respects :
--quite a lot of "new" ground being brought into production;
--"villas" growing;
--"new" churches being founded in them;
--or re-founded, given from lay hands (into which they had "fallen" in the
10th c., _spolia_ from the vast estates of Fleury, St. Denis, St. Germain of
Paris, etc.) to ecclesiastical ones, such as the Great Abbey of Marmoutier,
the reformed collegial of St. John's of Chartres, or the totally New
Benedictine foundations of Tiron and Josaphat.
looking at the surviving charters, i can rarely tell what the situation is in
this period re the "Parish" church of a village versus the Priory; and this
gets into the whole question of the "Cure of Souls" by Benedictines and other
Regular Clergy, which i've been too lazy to read up on.
case in point, at once typical and atypical:
there are quite a few charters from the early 12th c. surviving from the
_fonds_ of St. John's of Chartres concerning a place called
"Mantarville," which, today, is little more than a "lieu-dit," just a
"Wide Place in the Road," as we say here in the American Midwest.
East of Chartres, en plien Beauce, virtually on the boarders between the
County of Chartres and the Royal Domain and the Dioceses of Chartres and Sens,
the place was heavily "subinfeudated" --broken up into quite a large number of
holdings, most held in fief from the King, or the Vidame of Chartres, or
whoever.
for reasons which i don't fully understand (N.B. the understatement), there
was an attempt in the 1120s to more or less "consolidate" the _villa_ in the
hands of the collegial of St. John.
in the course of these events one of the charters mentions an agreement
reached between the Canons of St. John's and some Benedictines (Fleury? i
can't recall) who held most of the neighboring village and had a Priory
there.
one of the conditions of the agreement had it that the Canons agreed not to
have a Parish church in their _villa_ of Mantarville, only (perhaps --memory
again) a chapel for the canons living in the place.
clearly (i think), it was a question of the Benedictines protecting their
"rights" (read: income) re their function as parish soul-curers.
what all this has to do with "glebes" i've forgotten, but i'll let it stand.
>I don't know if this would be calculated separately from tithes, though.
me neither.
i'd *guess* that the figure found in the Pouillés would be some kind of
*total* amount, from all sources.
best from here,
christopher
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