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Subject:

Re: Standards-Compliance-Students

From:

Nigel PEET <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Virtual Learning Environments <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 3 May 2002 11:31:28 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (343 lines)

Ken et al

I confess that part (re tltp) was clumsy. My point is that is if you know
the courseware is going to have to work in another organisation in a
particular system then I think that more care is given to both ends of the
development, particularly if those systems have clearly identified,
specified, routes in and out of the package. Doesn't this help rather than
hinder? I agree that it doesn't help with the pedagogy, but at least not
having to worry about platforms potentially provides more time for what is
really important in the design process.

WebCT and Blackboard have a huge user base in the US and a great deal of
content already produced for their individual, proprietary file systems
inherited from previous versions. With any luck we can avoid all of that and
no one will have to spend a great deal of time writing converters.

Best regards

Nigel

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Smith [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 03 May 2002 09:45
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Standards-Compliance-Students


Nigel

       Having attempted to use some of the materials you mention I agree
that they were seriously flawed but I do not see how making them Scorm
compliant would have improved the pedagogy and indeed the ones that I had to
sample were so seriously bad that the most cost effective way of improving
them was to tear them up and start again.

I take your point that interoperability is optional but I do not see that
the only way we can swap content etc is to all work to the same standard.
MSword does not use the same standard as Word perfect or Wordpro but I can
share files between them because the filter programs have been provided to
change the file format from one system to another.  Commercial pressure, the
second most powerful driving force, will make suppliers of VLEs follow suit.
Indeed this week blackboard has announced the production of a program to
convert WEB CT courses to Blackboard courses.

 Quoting Nigel PEET <[log in to unmask]>:

> Ken
>
> Thanks for expanding your position. I don't believe it is fruitful
> here to consider whether standards are good in general, only in
> particular. In this
> case the need, for example, to "escalate" an enrolment in a VLE to
> your
> student record, or vice versa, doesn't prevent the content from being
> developed to suit your particular users, or their HCI needs. (Is this
> not
> why we have developed IMS into Content and Organisation sections?) If,
> however, in some unimaginable future that does become the case then we
> will
> simply develop the specification. One of the great breakthroughs in
> knowledge management comes with the realisation that in the virtual
> world
> processes of storage and retrieval are functionally separate. In the
> VLE
> world I suggest that interoperability, or CCI (Computer Computer
> Interaction) and HCI, the Human variant, are similarly separate and that
> it
> is this very separation that allows, if not encourages "out of the
> box"
> thinking.
>
> Some years ago our HE sector was given very large sums of money to
> develop learning materials. I reviewed a number of these and found
> them seriously
> lacking in sound pedagogy and HCI. Had they been produced now to
> function in
> a SCORM environment, for example, then we could all be making use of
> them.
> As it is very little remains of that project.
>
> As has been said elsewhere if anyone doesn't wish to join in with the
> interoperability party then they don't have to. But what a pity that
> colleagues will find it all the more difficult to swap content without
> having to worry about "getting it to run."
>
> Finally on your comment of dreaming, from my days in design education,
> I believe that creativity is borne of constraint not complete liberty.
>
> Best regards
>
> Nigel Peet
> Director of ICT
> South Cheshire College
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Smith [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 02 May 2002 19:07
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Standards-Compliance-Students
>
>
> For Nigel
>
> The argumentI was addressing was whether standards were or were not a
> good thing per se.
>
> However, I can apply this to the VLE argument. If the the need to
> conform to the particular communication standard means that an
> otherwise useful feature
> has to be left out of your VLE then the standard has stifled creativity.
>  In
> the same way that the inclusivity rules that we are trying to introduce
> is
> stifling some of the creativity of programmers who would like to add
> useful
> features to their learning materials but cannot make them acceptable to
> all
> people with or without physical or mental impairment.
>
> With regard to the "thinking outside of the box", if you are to be
> able to dream and be able to realise those dreams you need as few
> constraints as
> possible.  In other words you need not to be tied to a set of
> standards.
>
> Incidentally the systems recently under trial did not seem to talk to
> eachother
> very well, standards or no standards.   So I am told, most achieved
> their
> levels of interoperability by using an intermediary program, something
> akin to a router for software.
>
> I hope this answers your question.  If you want to know where I stand
> it is simply that standards should not be so tight as to be
> restrictive and should
> not be imposed too early in the development of a system.
>
> Quoting Nigel PEET <[log in to unmask]>:
>
> > "On the other hand they also stifle creativity and seriously inhibit
> > thinking "outside of the box"."
> >
> > I'm at a loss to see how this can possibly happen simply because we
> > want the underlying (communication) technologies to talk to each
> > other. Could Ken help me out with this?
> >
> > Steve: I would prefer standards issues to be aired here. They are an
> > integral part of the VLE debate whether you are a designer or an
> > implementer.
> >
> > Nigel Peet
> > Director of ICT
> > South Cheshire College
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ken Smith [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: 02 May 2002 09:04
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Standards-Compliance-Students
> >
> >
> > I feel that standards are a double edged sword.  Yes they do allow
> > people toto work towards a common goal and share their experiences
> > much more easily.  This is extremely important if we are to make
> > content available as quickly as possible.  On the other hand they
> > also stifle creativity and
> > seriously inhibit thinking "outside of the box".  Probably the
> biggest
> > mistake is to try to enforce a standard before the pace of
> development
> > has
> > levelled off.  Just think where we would be if the old Microsoft MSX
> > standard had been successful, still using z80 processors.
> >
> > Perhaps we should be looking at looser standards. Ones that allow a
> > large amount of leeway within a set framework.  Take RS232c a very
> > loose standard protocol for serial transmission.  Invented for the
> > old Teletype machines in
> > the 1950s and still being used (although it is now dying out) on all
> our
> > PCs
> > It survived this long by not being too restrictive.
> >
> > Quoting Steve Molyneux <[log in to unmask]>:
> >
> > > I must disagree. Standards are extremely important. Especially if
> we
> > > "the tax payer" are to get value for public funds spent on content
> > and
> > > systems. This is exactly why interoperability is paramount. I feel
> > > there are a number of issues with equal validity. These include
> > > Pedagogy, Interoperability, Access (addressing disability) and
> > > multi-channel support.
> > >
> > > Maybe if colleagues feel it is a problem we should request a
> > separate
> > > list managed by CETIS on the standards issue as that is exactly
> > their
> > > domain.
> > >
> > > As one who is heavily involved in advising Government, Industry
> and
> > > Customers of learning technologies I would welcome it.
> > >
> > > What do colleagues think?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Andy Black [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > Sent: 01 May 2002 09:54
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Standards-Compliance-Students
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear List
> > > I feel that our 'VLE' list is in danger of becoming the official
> > > 'Standards and Compliance' debate list. Surely, (apologies for
> > > repeating myself) at the end of the day, the only thing that
> really
> > > matters is whether or not students and teachers are using ICT to
> > > enhance their teaching and learning?
> > >
> > > Again I have to agree that 'it would be nice'
> > > to "Standardise" VLEs and tell vendors what to do when developing
> > > their products. However, I and many of you, live in the real
> > (Virtual)
> > > world where commercialism rules and evolution of products is
> market
> > > driven. Instead of getting wrapped up in our own self inflicted
> > > 'issues' with compliance and standardisation, we should really be
> > > encouraging those colleagues who have had minimal exposure to
> these
> > > technologies, to have a go!
> > >
> > > Who are we anyway to impose 'standards' and
> > > demand 'compliance' when we are not the ONLY consumers of VLEs? Or
> > are
> > > we once again, attempting to justify our own jobs whilst
> neglecting
> > > the 'real' end users - the students...
> > >
> > > Member of the Content Council and registered as an e- learning
> > > consultant. www.contentcouncil.co.uk
> > >
> > > Get your own zoom email - click here - http://www.zoom.co.uk/
> > >
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> >
> >
> >
> > Ken Smith
> > I.L.T. Specialist
> > JISC RSC - SE
> > Office 01189 675451
> > Mobile: 07814023986
> >
> > ***************** List information: ***************** Remember -
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> web
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> leave
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> >
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> web
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> >
>
>
>
> Ken Smith
> I.L.T. Specialist
> JISC RSC - SE
> Office 01189 675451
> Mobile: 07814023986
>
> ***************** List information: ***************** Remember -
> replies go by default to the entire list. Access the list via the web
> on http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/vle.html
> The Ferl VLE Focus Area is at
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> vle
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> ***************** List information: ***************** Remember -
> replies go by default to the entire list. Access the list via the web
> on http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/vle.html
> The Ferl VLE Focus Area is at
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> To unsubscribe, email [log in to unmask] with the message: leave
> vle
>



Ken Smith
I.L.T. Specialist
JISC RSC - SE
Office 01189 675451
Mobile: 07814023986

***************** List information: *****************
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To unsubscribe, email [log in to unmask] with the message: leave vle

***************** List information: *****************
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