Hello Steve (Crosby)  - Thanks for that. I agree that there is not
necessarily any one "discourse" although I am not sure that there are not
over-powerful aspects at work where "practice" itself becomes something that
is as much a hope and a romantic hope at that. If we consider these words
from the perspective of M.Foucault, for example, I find very many questions
to which I have already made translucent.

For example - what is the discourse of this use of "property" ? Is this
something that can be "had" and therefore can be "given"? Or is there a
discourse of being - where to "have" is quite absurd and to try and "give"
the same?

Then again if we take a glance at the work of A. Gramsci we might find a
different situation concerning the term we have centred upon ourselves. The
"organic" through Gramsci might then be considered ( and acted upon) through
a sense of hegemony of which "leadership" is but an expression of such.

My point here is not to deny your words but it is only to try and carry on
the conversation in the layers that you help make through this - that I help
make reasonably.

You state quite clearly that you reply from what OAE works with. But what
discourse(s) would you identify at work through your ( and my own) selection
of those words "outdoor" - "adventure" - "ediucation" and "leadership" ? What
practices ?

I might end by saying that I feel a great affinity with what you say to me
and the list. I only try here and expand it a little and to help both
interpret it and explain it a little more.

thanks again
best wishes
steve bowles

[log in to unmask] wrote:

> Many thanks to all those who have offered (and continue to offer)
> suggestions in my quest for "leadership models".
>
> Steve Bowles wrote:
> >If you wish to find a more "organic" approach and discourse-practice
> >attached to the outdoors and the adventure and to various forms of
> >educational work then I think you should explore new arenas. They are
> >there.
>
> I will offer another explanation of what I am looking for in an attempt
> to bring forth a somewhat different harvest from those other new arenas.
>
> >Leadership and so on tends to live within a specific discourse (and
> > practice) that is not "ORGANIC". (S. Bowles)
>
> While this may be true "within a specific discourse" -  I tend to view
> leadership (as it is a facet of outdoor/adventure education) as something
> of an "emergent property" - and very much organic.
>
> By emergent property I mean one which is characterised not so much by
> it's "components" (what it is made of), but rather by the relationships
> among those "components".  For example, sugar is sweet, yet none of the
> constituent elements of suger - carbon, hydrogen or oxygen - possess the
> quality of sweetness.  The sweetness emerges from the relationships among
> those components. (paraphrased from Fritjof Capra)
>
> My search for a more "organic" model of "leadership" (sorry Steve, I do
> have another word for it) comes from a sense that there are a lot of
> "skills", "competencies", "components", etc. lists compiled (with a great
> deal of effort) and yet for me they seem to be incomplete in representing
> inspirational outdoor educators - who I believe to be leaders.  It is
> like vivisecting a bird to try to understand the beauty of its song and
> then trying to put it back together to hear it again.  If we try to teach
> someone all the necessary components - they may still lack the ability to
> lead. (Even after studying Hersey and Blanchard's situational leadership
> matrix and reading John Heider's The Tao of Leadership along with a
> hundred other books ...)
>
> I do not know if this is of any help in "exploring new arenas" - I hope
> so. If not, any suggestions would be helpful.
>
> Once again, thanks to all those who have provided suggestions.
>
> Peace,
> Steve
> Steve Crosby
> [log in to unmask]
> P.O. Box 4480
> Shortland St. Auckland
> 025-622-6356
>
> "The notion that all these fragments are separately existent is evidently
> an illusion, and this illusion cannot do other than lead to endless
> conflict and confusion."  -David Bohm





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