Dear Francine, Pippin, et Al. (say, who *is* that Al guy, anyway?),

Off hand, I'd say that the picture you paint of 7th-9th c. Ireland is, well,
something of a world apart from that which I incompletely know 'round about
Chartres in the 11th-13th cc. 

*About* as different, perhaps, as a figure from the Book of Kells is from one
on the Royal Portal.

Surely no more than that.

Certainly a good part of that difference is due to the *vast* difference in
"culture" (and in time); but the nature and quantity of surviving written
sources are also crucial.

Francine Nicholson wrote:

>What kind of sources do you have available for Chartres?

As noted a few months ago in another string on this list (apologies for the
repetition), though it is extraordinarily rich in the number of 11th-12th cc.
charters surviving (we may assume *many* more were lost, of course) from
several of the major ecclesiastical institutions, the diocese/county is quite
remakably poor in any sort of narrative sources: 

++ with the exception of a short and spotty (albeit certainly important) work
of c. 1080 by a Benedictine monk (Paul) of St. Peter's 
  (http://homepages.infoseek.com/~centrechartraine/sources/VetusAganon.html ),
I can think of no locally produced annals, chronicles nor other narrative
sources from this period -- though there are certainly bits and pieces of
Chartres-related material to be gleaned from some of those produced in
neighboring regions (e.g., parts of Suger's _Vita_ of Fat Louis and his _de
Administratione_ directly concern places and conditions in the region; while
the Benedictine _Morigny [near Étampes] Chronicle_ sheds a quite different bit
of light on the character and career of Suger's great _bête noire_, the
otherwise notorious Viscount of Chartres, Hugh of LePuiset; Orderic Vitalis
speaks, in passing, of a married canon of the Cathedral, etc.). 

But, curiously, strictly Chartrain narrative sources are.... well, just
non-exstant.

++ unlike Sens, Le Mans, Auxerre (and, I assume, elsewhere), no _Historia
Episcoporum_ of the diocese has survived -- nor is there a trace of a [lost]
one mentioned in any later source that I know;

++ as for "geneaologies" -- Get Serious (gheewhillikers, I *wish*).

++ A *few* letters, preserved (for mostly literary reasons) by Bishops
Fulbert, Ivo, and John ("of Salisbury"); Abbot Arnold of Bonneval, etc. shed
some light on the sorts of conditions which concern us here;

++ A *few* utterances in hagiographic sources (e.g., the _Vita_ of St. Gilduin
from St. Peter's) contain some few incidental references of possible use.

And, I think, that's about it.
(But see Jan van der Meulen's massive _Chartres: Sources and Literary
Interpretations. A Critical Bibliography_, 1989, chapter IV "Primary Sources"
for a much more competent survey of this material.)

So, 

>But as long as one can gain access to some of the (often difficult to
obtain)collections, the task of checking the kin-group affiliations of 
an abbot is rather simple.... 

and

>As a graduate student, even without access to some of the more obscure
collections, I was able to track the kin-group affiliations of most of 
the abbots that interested me with a minimum of effort. 

Sounds like an enviable situation.

It is a matter of faith that, if I can ever wean myself off of email and
actually Get Back To Work, I can -- with considerable effort -- unravel
(*just*) the family affiliations of, say, *most* of the 12th c. Abbots of St.
Peter's (the ancient Benedictine house below the city), and perhaps those of
St. John's (abbey of canons, regularised by Bishop Ivo, largely under the
influence of the Vidames, the family of its Abbot Stephen, 
later Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem), and of St. Mary Josaphat (outside of
town, down the river a few kilometers, at Lèves), etc. 

But for many, if not *most* of these guys, it will be like pulling teeth,
teasing the various strands out of the whole ball of wax which is the
hodge-podge of charter evidence (the latter probably qualifying as a gen 
u wine _mess_, though that term seems to have some sort of technical 
sense in Irish studies).

*Then* working out the rôle (if any) which these family affiliations played in
the "administration" of any given Abbot, well, that's an hole nother waxy ball
(as we say in Chartres studies).

>Abbots often favored the fortunes of their kin, but not always. After all,
kin don't always get along with kin for many reasons...

Yes, absolutely.

And theoretically.

But I'm inclined to believe (or perhaps *want* to believe) that *my* Abbots
were the (extended) "family's" "representative" viz-a-viz the saint, his abbey
and his property in a relationship which (again, I 
*want* to believe) extended back beyond the pre-historical horizon of the
mid-11th c. and forward until... when? 

>In fact, a change in who got to be abbot sometimes indicated a change in the
secular power of the area, too. 

"Sometimes" being the operative word here.

E.g., without mounting a frontal assault on the problem (mainly hoping that
someone else will do/has done it), I've often wondered how it was that not a
few of the 11th-12th c. Abbots of Marmoutier (not yet all identified viz-a-viz
even their basic family connections, btw!) seem to have had *strong*
connections with the County of Blois/Chartres (e.g., a failed candiate for B.
of Ch. in the early 11th c. and a member of a 
cadet branch [the Mérévilles] of the Viscounts of Chartes [/LePuiset] in the
later 12th), in spite of the fact that Tours itself was forcibly 
taken out of the hands of the Counts of Blois[/Chartres] in the early 
11th c. by the Count of Anjou. 

*And* that priories of Marmoutier were founded and presumably flourished in
the County throughout the late 11th and early 12th cc.

All of which is to say (at last), best I can make out, for "my" region, such
questions are *very* complex, and sorting them out requires simultaneous
awareness of both the "macro" geo-politcal situation of the whole of Northern
France (the Anjou/Norman/Chartres-Blois/Royal machinations, which, of course,
shift and twist and turn several times each generation) *and* the "micro"
level of the little region surrounding the site of the particular priory
(because the surviving charters usually/frequently were generated at this
level).

Seems to me that it would be extraordinary (*not* to say impossible) if the
Irish Annals and Hagiographies - even if they weren't ina _mess_ - just
wouldn't, as a general rule, allow for "resolving" (I use this term in its
optical sense -- as with a lens) History at this level unless they were
*very*, *very* good (well and perceptively written), *very*, *very* detailed
and *very*, *very* reliable (either free from or with 
seperatable prejudices).

To try to do this *without* an abundance of collateral charter 
evidence... 
well, it just boggles my poor mind - but I certainly wish you guys all 
the luck in the world.

Looks like the main thing that you have going for you is the utter
reasonableness of the thesis that "monasteries" generally and universally were
not "just" "spiritual" institutions but were also *profoundly* 
rooted in the "secular" world.

Have to say that there's not many "floodlights on the historical situation" in
my stuff -- just a few candles, here and there, and most of those hidden under
bushel baskets.

>Also, monasteries often stood in the boundaries between territories and thus
became targets of dispute between kin-groups and tuatha. 

Reminds me of the situation (as I misunderstand it, second hand) with a great
many of the Cistercian foundations of the 12th c. -- deliberately sited in
_marche_ areas, in part (??) to take advantage of such jurisdictional
disputes, lay and ecclesiastical by, among other things, playing both sides
against their middle (or has that nasty ole Walter Map poisoned my mind
forever against the pious White monks?).

Best to all from here,

Christopher

P.s. Francine Nicholson wrote:
>Christopher Crockett wrote -
>> You know what? I feel I'm being tiresome - really I should come out
and....

>I look forward to the publication of your discovery.

Please don't hold your breath.

Having perished long ago, I've no need to publish.

Besides, Pippin is guarding all her good ideas for herself and won't let 
me steal them.












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