Dear All,
I find the dumping down of racist and degrading messages such as the one
below excessively distressing. There is so much xenophobia and racism even
in this supposedly academic forum. I do not know how other participants
feel about the below message, but I feel quite upset. As the
fascist and nationalist movements are flourishing in Europe, I would hope
that at least the sociologists would take a stronger stance against social
injustices, various forms of discrimination and oppression.
Maybe I am being too optimistic.
Best regards,
Mustafa Ozbilgin
On Tue, 11 May 1999, Edwin van Teijlingen wrote:
>
> "Albanians are even worst. They are eternal beggars and stealers with no
> gratitude. Even gypsies steal with style. Albanians no. When you pay an
> Albanian in Greece as illegal worker he will come next day to steal YOU and
> not another who did not pay him. THEY ARE ETHNICALLY CRAZY. They became
> Muslim just not to be taxed by Turks and the half of them surveilled the
> other half as spies. "
> I assume this opinion (the quote above in particular and the long letter
> below in general) is formed on the basis of (sociological) studies and
> carefully conducted research, and not merely based on prejudice and
> stereotypes. Otherwise I feel someone should be ashamed of calling himself
> a Social Anthropologist and Sociologist (and that might be me).
>
> Edwin R. van Teijlingen
> Lecturer in Public Health
> Admission Selector and co-ordinator BSc Health Sciences
> Department of Public Health
> Medical School
> University of Aberdeen
> ABERDEEN AB25 2ZD
>
> tel: +44 (0) 1224 663123 ext 52491
> fax: +44 (0) 1224 662994
> email: [log in to unmask]
> Web: http://www.abdn.ac.uk/public_health
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nikos Gousgounis [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 11 May 1999 23:28
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Conference on NATO's Future ( or rather KILLING FOR NATO
> FUTURE )
>
> In May 11 you wrote :
>
>
> >I am most definitely NOT cordially invited. On the contrary, I am
> >visited by the topic of your conference, without invitation, every day
> >and night. You guessed right: I live in Belgrade. And no, I am not
> >Milosevic's follower, just as 1.5 million of Belgraders are not.
> >Remember the Protest against him in Belgrade and all the major cities
> >here, that NATO now bombs constantly? Close to one hundred days in the
> >streets. Carrying USA and EU banners. What are we to carry now? Are you
> >going to answer this question at your conference?
> >I can not believe that you are planning a conference on NATO without
> >even mentioning the actual goings on. Where do you live? Planet Earth
> >calling to the School of Humanities (???) and Cultural Studies!=20
> >You might try inviting experts from Yugoslavia (or if that is too bold,
> >maybe Russia, or China, perhaps?) I'm sure it would add flavor to your
> >"terrace of the 18th century mansion" atmosphere.
> >And when NATO makes some kind of "patchwork" deal with Milosevic,
> >leaving refugees where they are, with the opposition in Serbia
> >destroyed, Milosevic voted "President for lifetime", are you going to
> >organise a new conference, with some Serbian guest speakers?>
> >
> >Sincerely,
> >Prof. Slobodanka Nedovic,
> >School of Law, University of Belgrade
>
>
> Dear Slobodanka
>
> I read your comments on the Nato conference ( that is a ridiculus
> case the same as the gala of Nato birthday). Do you really mean it when
> you say that Yugoslavs from the opposition are not invited ? In other words
> DO YOU STILL TRUST THESE BLOODY CRIMINALS and you want
> to participate in their conferences ? What is your hope for the future,
> that once Milocevic will be off, the Serbian Nation will be salvated and
> Mr Clinton will say SORRY ?
>
> I am a Greek sociologist and I am really perplexed about the recent crisis.
> What is really happening in Beograd ? I have been in your city many times
> mostly in the decade 1970-80 and people looked happy and joyful. Then
> came Milocevic and the Bosnia war. Then you say that the 3/4 of Belgradians
> formed the opposition every day in the roads. That was clear on TV but the
> fact is that at the time Americans rather estimated Milocevic as a
> stability
> factor
> useful for signing the Daiton traity. Then all was reinversed upside down.
> M
> became
> the bad guy for Nato and bombings started. Then you don't know whom to
> blame
> for that.
>
> Well, my aspects are the following ( as a neighboring outsider) :
>
> 1/ It was a terrible mistake to trust Americans even 2 years ago while
> demonstrating
> in the streets against M with American and EU flags. These states are not
> to be
> trusted because they were opposant to Serbs not OUT OF THE SERBIAN
> POLITICAL REGIME BUT BECAUSE THEY PREFERED TO ENFORCE
> CROACIANS AND MUSULMANS.
> That was a German idea influencing strongly EU. The American innovation
> concerns
> the influence on Muslims. The same is with Greece and Turkey for the last
> 25
> years. Both belong to Nato but US is favorable to Turks whatever the Greek
> gorvement might be ( Dictature put by US in 1974 when Cyprus was massacred
> with 170.000 refugees) then Conservative goverments , then Socialists.
>
> 2/ Must be some important minerals in Kosovo ( URANIUM) otherwise it's no
> explained why they bomb with such rage even villages killing Albanians too.
> All they want is not to have important rulers in that region and the
> solution of
> autonomy seemed good since an Albanian under their orders ( managed by paid
> killers such as UCK) WILL MAKE THEIR EASY SERVANTS.
>
> 3/ Draskovits and the rest of opposition may think that they are democratic
> and
> all that, but under present circumstances all that is NAIVE because the
> important now is WHO CAN MANAGE HIS POWER BETTER AND
> WHO KNOWS TO PLAY BETTER CHESS. The ideological questions are
> off the record when you get bombs over your heads. THERE IS NO HOPE THAT
> EUROPEANS ( MOSTLY ENGLISH) AND AMERICANS WILL
> SYMPATHISE BETTER SERBS after EXTERMINATING MILOCEVITS.
>
> YOU MUST BE BABY- NAIVE TO HOPE THAT. Milocevic was a good
> pretext to create all this scenery, but their fault was that waited that
> all the
> opposant should rebel against M the second day of bombings. This did not
> happen and you know the reasons beter than me. Please don;t say that you
> wanted to scream VIVA NATO and official propaganda did not let you.
> In the contrary there was a solidarity and this is the strong point of the
> Serbian
> people that makes the difference with other EU nations. That proves thast
> you
> have more common points with M than with NATO even this very moment.
> You may be internationalist in ideology but when the STRONG BOSS
> DON'T LET YOU BE AS YOU WISH THEN YOU MUST PAY HIM
> WITH SCORN AND even HATE. What do you like from US ? Their freedom
> or the lies of its leaders ? They create news like films of Holywood. CNN
> IS A
> SMALL HOLLYWOD.But life is not Titanic nor Disneyland . French sociologists
> ( Baudrillard ) had said in 1991 that probably the Gulf war was a video
> game
> and
> nothing more. Bourdieu believes from early eighties that L'OPINION PUBLIQUE
> N'EXISTE PAS. IT IS FABRICATED. So what do you want from US ? Money
> from Wall street ? Are you jealous for their wealth ? But they spend these
> money
> as idiots for expensive clothes , restos and psychanalysts. Serbian and
> Bosnian gypsies
> are much more happier. KASTURICA WAS RIGHT WHEN LEAVING THE US
> AFTER TURNING HIS WORST FILM ARIZONA ..... But "Underground" is
> YOUR CULTURE and you must be proud of that.
>
> 4/ In Greece simple people like Serbs as brave heroes with not having idea
> what
> M is doing or did against Albanians. In my opinion, he killed 2000
> Albanians
> totally. But Albanians killed 1000 Serbs too. What is that idiocy of ethnic
> cleansing
> compared with Rwanda or Sudan ? American satellites could view even a man
> shaving himself , so why not showing this ethno cleansing in the CNN ?
>
> DO YOU BELIEVE THAT IT HAPPENED ?
>
> ARE YOU SO INTERNATIONALIST THAT YOU NEED AMERICANS
> OR NATO TO HELP YOU TO GET RID OF M ?
>
> If you are, you have better to migrate to the US or Canada, but not be
> anymore proud of speaking Sebian and listening Serb music.
>
> Maybe you have more common things with M than you name meaning freedom
> and you did never consider it. Think it again.
>
> As for me I feel ashamed to belong in UN and having been paid for
> some European research programmes against social exclusion and xenophobia.
> EU is hypocrite especially when paying others for things it never believed.
> Maybe EU will be absorbed by the new NATO . Mr Blair is hardly working
> on this direction.
>
> What makes a nation important is not to imitate MTV or American cultural
> rabbish ( in music, language, films, fashion, lifestyle etc) but rather
> its
> own way to the future and Serbia had proved in the near past that it had
> its way. Yugoslavia also had its social and financial way of living in
> dignity
> and not as a slave of Russians or Americans. We, Greeks admired Yugoslavia
> of being so independent and autonomous state even during the cold war.
> Now the prize was to divide it in pieces ? If Croats never wanted to
> repeat
> the Tito experimentation of living in the same federation with poor
> Macedonians
> their praise will be to become the poor relatives of Austrians and German.
> Soon they will forget Croatianand will speak German. Do you envy them ?
> Where is their dignity ? Of course they are pro nationalist fascists but
> they
> are IDIOT FASCISTS THE SAME AS HUNGARIANS RUNNING AFTER
> THE STRONGS OF THE EART THE SAME AS MY DOG RUNNING AFTER
> ME EVEN IF I NEVER ENCOURAGE IT. Albanians are even worst.
> They are eternal beggars and stealers with no gratitude. Even gypsies steal
> with
> style. Albanians no. When you pay an Albanian in Greece as illegal worker
> he will come next day to steal YOU and not another who did not pay him.
> THEY ARE ETHNICALLY CRAZY. They became Muslim just not tobe
> taxed by Turks and the half of them surveilled the other half as spies.
>
> But Serbs were never as that. You never run after Byzantines, or Turks
> or Austrohungarian or German or Russian why to run after EU or US ?
>
>
>
> Sorry for the lenght of my letter , anyway I am a stranger that maybe you
> cannot trust, I promise you not the consumer paradise and the Wall street
> wealth but only sorrow and stress coming out of national dignity and
> bravery.
> I did not mention Ortodoxy and all that religious stuff since I don't
> believe
> on that but sometimes people do when bombs are on their heads, but
> anyway...
> it disd not happen to us here, maybe it will be Greece's turn next year.
>
>
>
> WHEN ONE IS BRAVE
> HE IS BRAVE FOR HIMSELF
> AND NOT FOR ANY PARTICULAR LEADER
>
> Socrates taught : KNOW YOURSELF AND BE THE LEADER OF YOURSELF
>
> Just remember that and if you wish you may respond to me.
>
> Regards
>
>
> Nikos Gousgounis
> Ph.D. Social Anthropologist and Sociologist of Sorbonne University.
> working in Athens.
>
>
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