I do not disagree with much of what Vasilis Patsilaras has to say about the 
mistreatment of the Kurds by the Turkish regime, (although I might quarrel with 
the use of the term Fascist which I think has a more precise meaning than he 
does or the comparison with the Moscow trials). However his account of the 
Bosnians or Kossovans cannot be allowed to stand. Slobodan Milosevic fanned the 
flames of Serbian nationalism in ending Kossovan autonomy and suppressing 
educational and other rights for the Albanian speaking majority (remember that 
the population of kossovo is 90% Albanian). As far as Bosnia is concerned I 
think that Bosnia stood at first precisely for the possibility of a state where 
different ethnic and religious groups could co-exist. It was Croatian and 
Serbian nationalists who created a situation where the Bosnian government became
increasingly a Muslim one rather than a multi-ethnic one. Serbs were not a 
majority in Bosnia and whilst one might have wished that a multi-ethnic 
Yugoslavia was a possibility, a greater Serbia dominated by nationalism is a 
very different entity.

Howard Wollman
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Fwd: Re: Bosnia, Kossovo and Kurdistan Gabor's Question
Author:  Varnai Gabor <[log in to unmask]> at Internet-Gateway
Date:    22/02/99 10:27


Friends,
Maybe this will become a wider conversation, as it seems from 
messages coming from URBANET list.
     
If you want to join that list, send a message to
     
[log in to unmask]
     
with a message in the body:
     
SUBSCRIBE URBANET <full_name>
     
Sincerely: Gabor Varnai
     
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 99 10:24:20 CET  
From: patsilarasvasilis
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Bosnia, Kossovo and Kurdistan Gabor's Question
     
I think this is a very naive approach to intra-country conflicts,
because it does not take into consideration the role of outside intervention 
and interference. Yogoslavia, with all its shortcomings and lack of 
democracy, had achieved a remarkable level of cohesiveness among its various 
racial and religious groups, up until the great powers decided to break the 
country up, by arming, instigating and siding opensly with a minority group, 
the Muslim Bosnians. The same disastrous prescription is now repeated in 
Kossovo. In reality it has very little to do with the people's perception of 
power structure, but rather it is a clear cut reaction to outside bland 
manipulation of local sentiments and politics.
     
The argument becomes clear when the case of Bosnia (and Kossovo) is compared 
to the case of Kurdistan. In the case of Yogoslavia, the Muslims are 
instigated and armed to the boot (by whom?) to revolt against Serbs, 
allegedly in order to protect their rights and national (!!) identity. The 
rights of these precious minorities have to reign suprime in our consiense, 
thus the big propaganda about human (read Muslim Bosnian) rights. In the case 
of Kurdistan, on the other hand, which is an ancient (Muslim too) nation with 
a far more dinstictive identity than the Muslims in Bosnia or Kossovo, no 
rights are recognised and even their national identity is not even 
acknowledged. Twenty five million people fighting against anihilion by the 
Turkish rulling bladdy military regime are called terrorist (Muslim Bosnian 
and Kossovans are not terrorists?) and they are refused the mere right of 
existance, so eagerly recognised to Bosnians and Kossovans.
     
In the last 10 years or so, 4,000 Kurd villages have been erased from the 
surface of the earth and millions of people have been killed, while tousands 
are being imprisoned and torured in an holocaust every bit as bad as 
Hitler's percecussion of Jews and other minorities. Turkey's military regime 
is the only fascist regime in power in the world today. A few days ago the 
leader of Kurds was illegally abdacted by the Turks in Kenya and as we speak 
he is being tortured and subjected to humiliation, much worse than the one 
suffered by Stalin's opponents in the infamous Moscow trials. None of this 
becomes headlines, however. It behoves all those who try to control our 
lifes to keep silent about the real causes of all these troubles and just 
talk some theoritical "bull" about people's faith in representative or 
authoretarian regimes. This analysis may be suitable to western countries, 
but have no application whatsoever to Yugoslavia, Kossovo, Kurdistan and 
other troubled places around the world, where human life is cheap.
     
Vasilis Patsilaras
     
>>Gabor,
>>
>>You don't just ask the easy questions, do you? 
>>
>>I have been discussing something very similar with a group of my friends 
>>scattered around the world.  I think it is the Politics of Desperation. 
As
>>people's faith in representative or even authoritarian forms of government 
>>wane, they need to replace it with other institutions. These institutions 
>>need to be _obvious_ in both their form and execution.  So you end up 
>>Bosnians and Serbs, who once lived together peacefully, fighting each 
other
>>for land and lineage that none of them are old enough to remember. 
>>
>>When under authoritarian rule, they had both other things to worry about 
>>_and_ no hope of being able to divide land.  In addition, they had faith 
in
>>their government.  This doesn't mean that they _liked_ their government -- 
>>but they had faith that it was stable and that it could, for better or 
>>worse, act.
>>
>>Once that comes into question, any number of political scenarios can 
>>begin -- depending on who builds the first demonstratable movement or 
power
>>structure.  Being able to divide up ethnically, racially, or by religion 
is
>>the easiest to see, easiest to defend, and easiest in terms of being able 
>to
>>identify the problem (the other race, creed, etc.). 
>>
>>These groups are usually focused on one leader -- but everyone feels like 
>>they are part of the movement because they are actually participating in 
>it.
>>They feel great ownership in it.  Whereas before, in their representative 
>>democracy or authoritarian regime, they felt virtualy no ownership due to 
>>their incredible level of removal from any vestiges of power.
>>
>>Then people start fighting.  And when people die, the survivors feel more 
>>need to achieve their goals and more personal ownership in the cause. 
They
>>pay a very high price for this ownership and do not easily let it go. 
>>
>>This is, for what it is worth, my quick version of what you asked. 
>>
>>Jim
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Urban and Regional Planners Network
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Varnai Gabor 
>>> Sent: Friday, February 19, 1999 12:24 AM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: question to all
>>>
>>>
>>> Friends,
>>> Here is a little opinion poll:
>>> I'm observing a phenomenon in Hungary that is:
>>> In critical social situations - what Hungary is in - 
>>> people do not claim organisational forms of
>>> democracy more, while they claim to a great extent 
>>> direct, participative forms of it.
>>> Did anybody observe phenomena like this one? 
>>> Sincerely:  Gabor Varnai
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- signature block follows ----- 
>>>
>>> Gabor VARNAI
>>> PARDES Urban Policy Research and Consulting Office; 
>>> Institute of Sociology, Hungarian Academy of Sciences 
>>> Felsoerdosor 12.
>>> Budapest, Hungary
>>> H-1068
>>> tel/fax: +36-1-3515465
>>> e-mail: [log in to unmask]
>>> if your answer undelivered: [log in to unmask] 
>>>
     
     


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