On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Robert B. Waltz wrote:

> A bunch of very quick responses (no time right now for real answers):
> This is probably all true, but it ignores one very significant institution:
> The harem. The Ottoman Sultan had hundreds of concubines, for instance,
> but only one wife (the first woman in the harem to bear him a son). Many
> of these women got no attention from the Sultan at all. So it is
> generally conceded that some, at least, turned to lesbianism.... 

And got a little help from the eunuchs. Many of them were castrated after 
puberty, when their sexual desires had already been established, and 
despite the loss of testicles a eunuch in that situation is capable of 
performing sexually. Some of those eunuchs seem to have had a jolly old 
time in the harem.

Even with the turning to female-female relationships, I suspect the women 
in the harem didn't think of themselves as homosexual, any more than men 
in prison or at sea do. They are "obligate homosexuals", forming 
same-gender connections only because of the lack of opposite-gender 
partners, but without considering that as part of their sexual identity. 
Merely a stopgap, so to speak. And I'd guess (admittedly without 
evidence) that the women in harems were in the same boat. Women in 
convents may have been another story, though -- there are enough 
injunctions against forming "special friendships" that one suspects it 
became an issue. If so, it was probably the first place in western 
society where it was.
 
> On 10/13/99, DS LR Surv  Lt Col C M St G Kirke wrote:
> 
> >I have often idly wondered, being a soldier myself, how these women
> >managed to conceal their gender, or if they failed how they managed to
> >live apparently normally among the men.  Was their collusion?  Was there
> >a price?  Was there simple acceptance of the situation?
> 
> The basic answer, I think, is that there was no culture of cleanliness
> back then. Sailors, in particular, might not bathe for many months.
> So as long as one was very cautious while eliminating, one would be
> all right.

Yeah, but one would have to be very cautious *and* very lucky. Let's face 
it, if one of your buddies never pees standing up, it's hard to avoid 
noticing.

I suspect many of the songs involve longing on the part of the sailors 
and soldiers -- "Wouldn't it be just delightful if one of you lot was a 
girl?" 

Peace.
Paul


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