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On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Robert B. Waltz wrote: > A bunch of very quick responses (no time right now for real answers): > This is probably all true, but it ignores one very significant institution: > The harem. The Ottoman Sultan had hundreds of concubines, for instance, > but only one wife (the first woman in the harem to bear him a son). Many > of these women got no attention from the Sultan at all. So it is > generally conceded that some, at least, turned to lesbianism.... And got a little help from the eunuchs. Many of them were castrated after puberty, when their sexual desires had already been established, and despite the loss of testicles a eunuch in that situation is capable of performing sexually. Some of those eunuchs seem to have had a jolly old time in the harem. Even with the turning to female-female relationships, I suspect the women in the harem didn't think of themselves as homosexual, any more than men in prison or at sea do. They are "obligate homosexuals", forming same-gender connections only because of the lack of opposite-gender partners, but without considering that as part of their sexual identity. Merely a stopgap, so to speak. And I'd guess (admittedly without evidence) that the women in harems were in the same boat. Women in convents may have been another story, though -- there are enough injunctions against forming "special friendships" that one suspects it became an issue. If so, it was probably the first place in western society where it was. > On 10/13/99, DS LR Surv Lt Col C M St G Kirke wrote: > > >I have often idly wondered, being a soldier myself, how these women > >managed to conceal their gender, or if they failed how they managed to > >live apparently normally among the men. Was their collusion? Was there > >a price? Was there simple acceptance of the situation? > > The basic answer, I think, is that there was no culture of cleanliness > back then. Sailors, in particular, might not bathe for many months. > So as long as one was very cautious while eliminating, one would be > all right. Yeah, but one would have to be very cautious *and* very lucky. Let's face it, if one of your buddies never pees standing up, it's hard to avoid noticing. I suspect many of the songs involve longing on the part of the sailors and soldiers -- "Wouldn't it be just delightful if one of you lot was a girl?" Peace. Paul %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%