medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
OOPS: Typo!
In the previous message's reference to Martin of Troppau, FOR "Jahr 639" PLEASE READ "Jahr 939".
John Dillon
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From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 4:18 PM
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Subject: Re: [M-R] Germanus/Teutonicus
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
On the other hand, Tom, Martin of Troppau's widely copied C13 _Chronicon pontificum et imperatorum_ does use _natione Germanus_. See (in the online MGH edition by Anna-Dorothee von den Brincken) this entry on Stephen VIII (under Jahr 639):
CMXXXIX ... Hic natione Germanus fuit mutilatus a quibusdam Romanis.
https://data.mgh.de/ext/epub/mt/mvt019v020r.htm
And Henry of Herford's mid-C14 _Liber de rebus memorabilioribus_ as edited by Potthast (Göttingen: Dieterich, 1859; p. 245 uses the same term for Charlemagne: _Karolus Magnus, natione Germanus,..._
https://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/en/view/bsb11215150?page=288,289&q=natione+germanus
For whatever it's worth, _natione Germanus_ is attested anciently. See Velleius Paterculus, 2. 19. 3, _servus publicus natione Germanus_; also the contemporary inscription CIL VI, 4344 (epitaph of a German bodyguard of Nero Julius Caesar, son of Germanicus; seemingly from the Via Appia; now lost; recorded in a ms. sylloge dated ca. 1460): _Nereus nat(ione) German(us) Peucennus Germanicianus Neronis Caesaris_ .
Best,
John Dillon
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From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 6:42 AM
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Subject: Re: [M-R] Germanus/Teutonicus
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
The Provinciale of the papal chancery has two versions of "the vices of the nations". The short version has "Ingluvies Theutonicorum". The longer version adds "Stultitia Saxonum".
Neither uses "German".
Tom Izbicki
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From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Jaeger, C Stephen <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 5:28 AM
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Subject: Re: [M-R] Germanus/Teutonicus
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Hello Paul,
I think "German" has to be the translation, unless there is some nuance at work in this particular usage which might be in the mind of the writer (as would be at work if in contemporary English we would call a German a Teuton). The Germans had the peculiar fate of being called by their neighbors by the names of whatever was the neighboring tribe: French "aleman," Italian "tedeschi", Polish "niemcy", English "German," and themselves "deutsch." It is a symptom of the origins of Germany in a collection of tribes rather than a unified nation. Tacitus begins his Germania with the question of why everyone has different names for the German peoples. He mentions a God called "Tiusco," So "Teuton" is probably as close as you get to an aboriginal name--i.e. one given by that people, not by their neighbors.
Best wishes,
Stephen
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From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Paul Chandler <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2021 9:43 PM
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Subject: [M-R] Germanus/Teutonicus
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Is there a standard way In English to translate the terms Germanus and Teutonicus? I'm looking at two early 14th-century Carmelites who are described respectively as "natione Germanus" and "Teutonicus". They both seem to have been from Cologne. Will "German" do for both, or am I missing some distinction? -- Paul
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Paul Chandler, O.Carm.
Holy Spirit Seminary | PO Box 18 (487 Earnshaw Road) | Banyo Qld 4014 | Australia
office: (07) 3267 4804 | mobile: 044 882 4996
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