Hi, Ursula,
Good post. I have not responded since Cindy posted because I am not yet sure what I wish to say -- Cindy quoted me, and even without attribution, I feel that she accused me of sexism and misogyny. In one way, I ought to respond -- it's a bit like Luiza's post incorrectly stating that I asked her to leave the list. Makes me seem like a terrible person. Luiza was never very active on the list -- if you search for her in the list archives, you find five posts, one from 2015, four from 2016. I felt quite bad having people believe that I would do such a thing, so I asked her to publish my request that she and her friends leave the list -- she never responded.
These issues are vexed. I don't think Johann meant to be sexist -- but I do think he sounded like an exasperated schoolteacher, and thus he sounded patronising. But Cindy wrote a harsh post -- and quoting me, she made it sound as though I had personally bullied Luiza into leaving the list.
From time to time, I have myself thought about leaving the list. Once or twice, I unsubscribed and then changed my mind.
Some folks on the list have no idea that one must occasionally hold out for what you believe, and this sometimes requires years of struggle and argument. I certainly know this first hand -- I earned my PhD in 1976 and I have no MFA. As a result, no art and design program was willing to hire me until I got a job in the research centre at Denmark's Design School in 2003. Imagine -- a quarter century in which no one would let me work in my field at any university, art school, or design school.
I have to say that I wonder about the contribution that can be made by folks who can't argue their case or make a point against unreasonable people. Think about people like Vera Rubin who had to work so long to demonstrate the physical fact of dark energy on which most scientists now agree. That took years of patient argumentation against people who were not merely patronising or difficult, but downright hostile. If she'd have lived another ten years, she might have finally won the Nobel Prize she deserves.
Anyhow, I liked your post. I do not want to respond yet. I'm writing to express my appreciation and to suggest that some of the people on the list may not be patronising or insensitive, but may indeed be speaking across the difficult boundaries of culture, age, disciplinary identity, and customs in their part of the world. I don't think Johann is talking down to Cindy because she is a woman. I think he is talking down to her because he expects a better post from a post-doctoral research fellow.
Yours,
Ken
On Thu, 26 Jan 2017 11:57:43 +0100, Ursula Tischner <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>Dear Johann and all,
>
>I am almost tempted to ask „what is wrong with you guys“ and this is not a personal opinion, but an open question, and I will explain the context right now:
>
>You will have noticed that Cindy is a woman, as is Thea, and as is Luiza, and as am I.
>At least as far as I know… why is this important at all?
>
>Interestingly Luiza after being very active here did not write anything for a long time. Maybe she left the list meanwhile...
>
>Thea wrote the following related to the current discussion on this list:
>"Maybe those of us who have given up posting out of fear are simply trying to take the advice in The Desiderata of Max Ehrmann (1927) to "Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit.“
>
>And what Cindy wrote is copied below.
>
>When I posted about Design and Sustainability and the Responsibility that Designers (should) have.
>Quite a few men over here reacted in an aggressive and negative way and tried to ridicule what I wrote…. I will not give names and quotes, maybe some of you remember that episode.
>
>Back then Ken and a few other participants in this list were so nice to write something positive as well.
>
>So what is my point?
>
>In this list there are not few but quite some male academics that have a way of trying to discredit contributions of women (but not only women) in a way and a style that is rude and arrogant, at the same time ignorant and feels like they cannot accept that maybe some other people with different cultural backgrounds (and different sexes) could have a point of view and a wisdom that is against everything that they learned, have thought so far, their dominant values and believes.
>
>And they are not able to tolerate these different world views but can only fight them. Sometimes it even seems that they even enjoy doing so.
>
>This has nothing to do with a high level academic debate but has rather the character of misogyny
>but that is not directed only against women but also against other cultural backgrounds… and people with other believe systems.
>
>If you now ask for the empirical data behind my assumption then just read through all the past discussions going back and forth here.
>
>Now there is another dimension to this issue of the „age of contempt“.
>
>I do not want to go further (again) into a gender discussion, but why is it the case that many many women (and few men) marched against the new President of the US?
>Why is it that in this list we still have academic discussions about these issues and we are not out on the street talking with our neighbors and students and trying to bring the education to everybody that we think is needed to save democratic systems from these kinds of bullies, demagogues, dominating the mainstream policies,
>Why are we not out there asking people to reflect and think and build their own opinion instead of just following a seemingly „strong“ leader etc. etc.
>
>Maybe you guys do all of this as well, I do not know many of you in person?
>
>But for me real action is more important at the moment than theoretical discussions.
>
>We know all of what is going wrong, kind of, if we don’t act it might be too lat, at least we can discuss with our neighbors, our students, our friends about these issues.
>Not indoctrinating or colonizing but asking them to develop an own perspective, build an opinion, look at it open minded and critically and start acting in a more informed way, at least that, understanding how to identify what is fake and real news ( as real as reality can get for each of us ).
>
>So, of course it is about opinions as well, and believe system and values etc.
>
>Thank you for reading and all the best
>
>Ursula
>
>Ursula Tischner
>econcept, Agency for Sustainable Design
>Albatrosweg 11
>50259 Pulheim
>Tel.: +49-151-22650776
>[log in to unmask]
>www.econcept.org
>
>
>> Am 26.01.2017 um 10:29 schrieb Johann van der Merwe <[log in to unmask]>:
>>
>> Oh, dear
>> I rest my case ...
>>
>> As I told my students ad nauseum, opinion and personal views are not
>> allowed in this (research) class:
>> Please provide your interpretation (while concisely reminding the reader of
>> the exact circumstances) to back up your statements ...
>>
>> Cindy, your post reads like your tweets ... but that should not be the
>> case, here.
>>
>> Johann
>>
>>
>> On 26 January 2017 at 10:24, Cindy Kohtala <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> Shrill and arrogant voices? Trump-like voices? Really? REALLY?
>>>
>>> Luiza Prado was completely bullied off this list.
>>> That is my view on what happened.
>>>
>>> Cindy
>>>
>>> --
>>> Cindy Kohtala
>>> Postdoc researcher
>>> Aalto University, Helsinki, Finland
>>>
>>>> The harsh and unjustified attack on list culture and list members has
>>> taken too great a toll.
>>>> the attacks on list members by a few shrill and arrogant voices.
>>>> It would be a sad thing to think that a few Trump-like voices can so
>>> thoroughly disrupt what was once an interesting and passionate community.
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr. Johann van der Merwe
>> Independent Design Researcher
>>
>>
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