Hi Klaus,
I suggest there is rapidly increasing need to make a single theory discourse across engineering design and the Art and Design fields.
The three main reasons are:
1. The currently rapid development of computer automation of design decisions across all design fields with the embodiment of design knowledge in software and knowledge systems rather than human designers. This applies across all design disciplines. The software structures are similar for all design fields and are resulting in de facto similarity of the detail of design process across disciplines.
2. The automation of mathematical modelling and its inclusion into engineering design software has meant that much of the previously necessary practical maths of engineering designers is no longer needed. Similarly, non-engineering product designers, graphic designers and other art-based designers are having their design processes supported extensively via mathematical algorithms (hidden in software).
3. Perhaps most important, is the inclusion and automation of social, environmental, ethical and discourse processes in design software through big data in ways that are more useful and reliable than discussions between small numbers of stakeholders.
For researchers and design theorists, the above and related factors put increasing pressure on developing a unified body of terminology and theory for design across all disciplines.
It also puts pressure on dropping the tradition terminology, theories, principles previously specific to individual design fields.
We have of course seen this already particularly in graphic design, and architecture with the transition to BIM-based design processes, and previously in engineering design with the transition to parametric and functional design.
Best wishes,
Terence
---
Dr Terence Love
PhD(UWA), BA(Hons) Engin. PGCEd, FDRS, PMACM, MISI
Love Services Pty Ltd
PO Box 226, Quinns Rocks
Western Australia 6030
Tel: +61 (0)4 3497 5848
[log in to unmask]
www.loveservices.com.au
--
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Klaus Krippendorff
Sent: Thursday, 28 January 2016 12:35 PM
To: PhD-Design - This list is for discussion of PhD studies and related research in Design <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Simon's glory
terry,
i am not convinced that anyone's definition of anything needs to be universally acceptable.
any definition needs to go only so far as its accepted discourse. when i write a paper on a mathematical problem then i define my terms to be able to work out something within the context of an essay.
scientists talking about designing an experiment does not need to be consistent with your engineering definition of writing the specifications for "a design"
moreover, i have been arguing and writing for years that professional designers rarely are in charge of specifying a product. in my experiences they mostly are part of a network of stakeholders in something that fuels their participation. that something may turn out quite unlike what a professional designer participating in its development have envisioned initially.
you are imposing qualifications of the definition of the word design. i'd say go for it, run with it and convince everyone else comes on board. frankly i doubt it. professional design has a far greater horizon.
klaus
-----Original Message-----
From: PhD-Design - This list is for discussion of PhD studies and related research in Design [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Terence Love
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 8:03 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Simon's glory
Hi Eduardo, Klaus, Ken and all
I would like to know how proposals that we should use a lexical basis for definitions of design explains the widespread expert use of the term 'design' by engineers of the several hundred different of disciplines of engineering and technical innovation?
The definition of design in engineering disciplines typically focuses on the production of a 'design' , and for many years in many engineering fields the production of a design was also referred to as draughting (or drafting).
About 10 years ago I commissioned a research assistant to catalogue over 100 years the publications with 'design' in their title from three major libraries (British Library, Congress and one other that I can't remember for the moment).
It was clear that the number of publications with design in their title from technical fields was many times greater than the number of publications with design in their title from the art-related design disciplines.
This suggests that for 'expert' use at least, the meaning ascribed to design from technical disciplines is the more significant over the last 100 years regardless of lexicography.
That cataloguing of the use of the term 'design' in publications was undertaken as part of the mapping the design disciplines project that I undertook. If I remember rightly I still have the raw data.
Best wishes,
Terence
---
Dr Terence Love
PhD(UWA), BA(Hons) Engin. PGCEd, FDRS, PMACM, MISI Love Services Pty Ltd PO Box 226, Quinns Rocks Western Australia 6030
Tel: +61 (0)4 3497 5848
[log in to unmask]
www.loveservices.com.au
--
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Eduardo corte-real
Sent: Thursday, 28 January 2016 7:31 AM
To: PhD-Design - This list is for discussion of PhD studies and related research in Design <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: [SPAM] Re: Simon's glory
Dear Klaus and Ken,
1st Ken, please read my previous post to the end. In case you don’t read this one also let me just state this: The Discipline of Design that emerged in the early 19th century is NOT based in the meaning that design gained in the 21st or 20th century. All texts of the time related with the foundation of schools and design as an activity of social relevance use a meaning that encapsulates drawings. This does NOT mean that Simon’s “definition” is not dominant or relevant today.
But let’s go back. You triggered in me an interest for dictionaries. I think they say a lot about words only if you understand their evolution. I know that Webster was wrong etymologically. I wrote about this fact. But let me clarify things a bit further:
In Robert Cawdrey 1604 first English Dictionary we read:
"[fr] deseigne, (*synonyms*) an appointing how any; [fr] deseignment, things shall be done (* synonyms end *); [fr] design, to marke out, or appoint for any purpose."
All three words are presented as originated in French and there is no meaning related with drawings, outlines or objects to produce, or any form of project.
In Nathan Bailey‟s An Universal Etymological English Dictionary, printed for the first time in 1721(in fact the first complete English dictionary:
"Desi ́gn [dessein, Fr. disegno, It. Desinio, Sp. Designatio, Lat.] 1. Intention, purpose, resolution, enterprise, or attempt. 2. Contrivance, project, scheme, plan of action. Is he a prudent man that lays designs only for a day? Tillotson. 3. A scheme formed to the detriment of another. A sedate settled design upon another man‟s life. Locke.
Design [respecting arts and sciences] denotes the thought, plan and the geometrical representation of any thing.
Design [in painting] the first draught or sketch of a picture, or, in general, it is the thought that artist had about any great piece; whether the contours and out-lines, be only drawn, or whether the piece has the shadows, or the colours; so that if there appears much skill or judgment, it is common to say, the design‟s great and noble. In the designs of several Greek medals, one may often see the hand of an Apelles or Protogenes. Addison.
Design [in painting] is also used to signify the just measures, proportions and outward forms, which those objects ought to have, that are drawn in imitation of nature, and may be called a just imitation of nature.
To Desi ́gn [designer, dessiner, Fr. Desegnare, It. Designàr, Sp. Of designo, Lat.] 1. to draw a design of any thing, to plan, to form in idea. Observe whether it be well drawn, or, as most elegant artisans form it, well designed. Wotton.
(Bailey 1736)
Other similar words in Neo-Latin languages are presented. Bailey separates clearly that there are meanings associated with “arts and sciences” in “painting” different from the first group of meanings: “Intention” etc.
Johnson, in 1755 repeats more or less Bailey’s meanings and introduces “Designer”:
"1. A plotter; a contriver; one that lays schemes.
It has therefore always been both the rule and practice of such designers to suborn the publick interest, to countenance and cover their private. Decay of Pity.
2. One that forms the idea of any thing in painting or sculpture.” (p. 574)
It is hard to imagine that the schools of Design were created to teach young men to be plotters, contrivers, layers of schemes devoted to suborn the public interest. So I think is wise to conclude that these early schools were made to use the capacity “to form ideas of any thing in painting or sculpture” to form objects for use.
And that’s here where I would like to address Klaus’ post. Of course that “the art of delineating objects” had nothing to do with Simon’s saying. But that was the centre of that activity that originated those schools. It is nice to see in MacDonald that two parties were from the beginning formed. One advocating a Bavarian process of teaching more based on a “scientific” approach and another advocating the Lyon process more based on a “arts” approach.
We all read Pevsner and I agree with you in what you say about the arts and crafts movement. But remember, they were pioneers of MODERN Design (from Pevsner’s point of view) and not pioneers of design. It is the lineage of Pevsner that will, flourish in the Bauhaus, Le Corbusier and others, fruitify in the New Bauhaus in Chicago and start to rot in Simon’s definition.
By the way, in 1969 (Simon’s first edition epoch) The Webster’s Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary listed design as:
“De.sign (...) vt 1 a : to conceive and plan out in the mind b: to devise for a specific function or end 2 archaic: to indicate with a distinctive mark, sign or name 3 a : to make a drawing, pattern or sketch of b : to draw the plans for c . to create, fashion, execute or construct according to plan: DEVISE, CONTRIVE ~vi 1: to conceive or execute a plan 2 : to draw, lay out, or prepare a design - de. sign.er n”
“Design n 1 : a mental plan or project or scheme in which means to an end are laid down 2 a: a particular purpose held in view by an individual or a group b: deliberate purposive planning 3 a: a deliberate undercover project or scheme: plot b pl : aggressive or evil intent – used with on or against 4: a preliminary sketch or outline showing the main features of something to be executed: DELINEATION 5 : an underlying scheme that governs functioning, developing or unfolding : PATTERN, MOTIF 6: the arrangement of elements that make up a work of art, a machine, or other man-made object 7 . a decorative pattern. syn see INTENTION, PLAN”
Best regards,
Eduardo
> No dia 27/01/2016, às 19:15, Klaus Krippendorff <[log in to unmask]> escreveu:
>
> dear eduardo,
> i don't think you can equate the 19th century phrase "the art of delineating objects" with "actions that change an existing situations into preferred ones."
>
> i don't know if syllabi of what was taught at the normal school on london survived, but whatever little i read, this meant sketching, rendering, making drawings. the actions needed to produce something were not delineated by designers who probably had no clue of how their sketches were acted upon.
>
> this is why i think the abilities of the early designers merely served producers who began to define the design profession similar to draftsmen. i content this fueled the simultaneous arts and crafts movement opposed to the division of designers and producers, promoting creative craftspeople instead.
>
> i believe that focusing on "actions" is a level of abstraction that was not too common 200 years ago. you can prove me wrong, of course.
>
> klaus
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PhD-Design - This list is for discussion of PhD studies and
> related research in Design [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf Of Eduardo corte-real
> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 11:26 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Simon's glory
>
> Dear Friends,
> I’m sorry again. I found a facsimile of Webster’s 1828 dictionary and it is even more clarifying. (I’m sure that our American colleagues may confirm this in the original if they rush to their magnificent library):
> "DESI'GN, V. t. desi'ne. [L. designo; de and signo, to seal or stamp, that is, to set or throw; Sp. designar, diseñar; It. desig- nare, disegnare ; Fr. designer, dessiner.]"
> The rest is the same.
> For the noun, Webster states: DESI'GN, n. [Fr. dessein.]
> And further more he clarifies the gerund: Designing n. The art of delineating objects Berkeley
>
> The Art of DELINEATING objects...
> This would mean that: Everyone that Devises courses of action aimed at changing existing situations into preferred ones was performing the art of delineating objects?
>
> But do not dismay. Down in the page we can find that a DESIGNER is (was) "One who designs, marks out or plans; one who frames a scheme or project; a contriver” But… what about the preferred ones? Don’t worry, the second meaning is: “one who plots; one who lays a scheme; in an ill sense” !!!!!
> So, in 1828 someone who devised courses of action aimed at changing existing situations into preferred ones (and if designated as designer) was , I must say this, a scoundrel.
>
> Cheers,
> Eduardo
>
>
>
>
>> No dia 26/01/2016, às 23:38, Klaus Krippendorff <[log in to unmask]> escreveu:
>>
>> dear eduardo,
>>
>> you are amazing in your command of historical material.
>> i wasn't clear whether the phrase " Devising courses of action aimed at changing existing situations into preferred ones" was actually used by the normal school or by a commentator on the school, e.g., by hayden whose letter you cite.
>>
>> anyhow, i am not surprised that by statistical probability we would find the a phrase like this in some literature.
>>
>> personally, i think the occurrence of this phrase prior to simon's doesn't disqualify what simon did. i think we should not be hooked too much on a single definition rather what it is being done with it. in simon's case, he wrote a book with detailed implications of his definitions which illustrates what HE had in mind. his book undoubtedly is interesting reading, but to my way of thinking it is limited to a computational conception of design, to solving trivial problems (as opposed to wicked ones), problems that favor engineering solutions not involving human conceptions, which is where my conception of design starts.
>>
>> klaus
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: PhD-Design - This list is for discussion of PhD studies and
>> related research in Design [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>> Behalf Of Eduardo corte-real
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 12:01 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Simon's glory
>>
>> Dear Friends,
>>
>> In order to establish the final glory of Simon’s “definition” I will start to post some remarkable findings in historical texts.
>>
>> From History and Philosophy of Art Education, by Stuart MacDonald, first published in 1970:
>>
>> “In 1837 the Board of Trade established the Normal School of Devising
>> courses of action aimed at changing existing situations into
>> preferred ones in Somerset House, Aldwych, in the set of rooms ‘on
>> the right hand side of the main entrance from the Strand’. These had
>> been vacated by the Royal Academy in the previous year, when the
>> Academy was granted rooms in the National Gallery, Trafalgar Square.
>> (73)
>> (…)
>> “This pathetic situation did not escape the attention of Haydon, who
>> took some delight in writing to Poulett Thomson on 28 February 1838:
>> ‘My Dear Sir, I yesterday visited your Government School of Devising
>> courses of action aimed at changing existing situations into
>> preferred ones. Oh! Mr Thomson, what an exhibition! Nine poor boys
>> drawing paltry patterns - no figures, no beautiful forms! and this is
>> the School of Devising courses of action aimed at changing existing
>> situations into preferred ones, the Government of Great Britain has
>> founded in its capital!’” (75)
>> (…) The Board of Trade eagerly awaited the report of Mr Dyce of
>> Edinburgh, whom the Council had sent to study the schools of Devising
>> courses of action aimed at changing existing situations into
>> preferred ones in France and Germany.” (75) The school which had the
>> highest reputation in Europe for producing designers (devisers of
>> courses of action aimed at changing existing situations into
>> preferred ones) was the Académie des Beaux Arts de Lyon. The academy
>> had six departments, Painting, Sculpture, Architecture, Ornament,
>> Engraving, and Botany, the last having a botanical garden provided
>> for it by the municipality. (…) The distinction between High and Low
>> Art was not maintained as in Britain; in fact, the students did not
>> decide whether to enter the fine arts departments or the ornament
>> department until they had completed a basic course of drawing and
>> painting. Life drawing was an important part of the course and the
>> life class was open every evening. The other large school which dealt
>> with devising courses of action aimed at changing existing situations
>> into preferred ones was the École Gratuite de Paris, and it had a similar system.
>> (79)
>> (…)
>> The Bavarians ran the system most favored by Dyce. All the primary
>> schools had classes for outline drawing of geometrical shapes and
>> simple elements of ornament, the same type of drawing which Dyce was
>> later to introduce generally in Britain through his Drawing Book. At
>> this stage ‘embellishment’ such as tone and color were prohibited.
>> Perspective was also taught. These primary devising courses of action
>> aimed at changing existing situations into preferred ones classes
>> were optional and when the pupils who had studied them left, they
>> could choose one of the thirty secondary gewerbeschulen which existed
>> in Bavaria for training artisan designers (Devisers of courses of
>> action aimed at changing existing situations into preferred ones). In
>> the gewerbeschulen the pupils learnt French, history, geography,
>> natural philosophy, and chemistry, and continued to draw in severe
>> outline until they were sufficiently accurate ‘ to devise courses of
>> action aimed at changing existing situations into preferred ones
>> architecture very correctly’ and to model with precision. (79-80)
>>
>> (to be continued)
>>
>> Eduardo Côrte-Real
>>
>>
>>
>>
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