Hi folks,
At last a note of caution about this - thanks Kate.
Without having time to respond in detail (again a common issue in getting effective consultaion on such initiatives) I'm deeply sceptical about the value, or feasibility of any "top down" workable scheme.
As Kate points out, there are issues of defining relevant fossil material (highly subjective), but also huge resource issues (in terms of access to expertise, time for fieldwork, or sample preparation, identification, asessment etc. Also, critically, GCG, societies or museums, do not "own" geological fieldwork, or have the right to control access, or allocate ownership of bits of rock. Some might think they should; I do not.
I would be very deeply worried by any attempt to use archaeological or cultural history models as an ideal for geological sampling, collecting and ownership. The legal frameworks are very different; geological science is very different; the material is very different; the scientific and economic uses of geological materials are very different. We are also dependent on fragile, and/or ad hoc and/or informal opportunities to be able to collect and preserve material, and we have to be very careful not to kill off our own activities, by enmeshing them in an unusably complex framework.
Having said all this, I am strongly in favour of encouraging better recording and dissemination of information, and if good tools (eg mobile phone based) can be produced which are good enough to see community take-up, I'd be overjoyed. However, we need carrot to do this, and emphatically not stick.
Apologies if this sounds a bit ranty, and/or incoherent. However, I think this issue needs to be approached lightly and cautiously, and with very wide consultation. We have to be very careful about unforeseen consequences for wider palaeontological and geological communities.
Cheers
John
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-----Original Message-----
From: The Geological Curator's Group mailing list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Katherine Andrew
Sent: 18 November 2013 09:34
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: NATIONAL FOSSIL RECORDING SCHEME?
Just to say this is going to need a lot of money and person power to do properly. Careful guidance will be required to the public to avoid every Gryphae (or substitute here which ever is the local very common fossil
species) being reported yet avoid the unscrupulous from stripping sites bare with JCBs and trailors for sorting at their leisure (which has happened).
There are the county HERN databases, and the Portable Antiquities scheme as comparators.
There is an opportunity to work with The Geology Trusts here, but many of these are only small with minimal or no staff . With the demise of Aggregate Levy and in current climate severe problems with revenue funding.
Kate Andrew
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Hadland" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, November 18, 2013 9:21 AM
Subject: Re: NATIONAL FOSSIL RECORDING SCHEME?
Any scheme would work best with the widest range of partners possible and
looks good on funding applications of course. Another one would be
GEOCONSERVATIONUK as would be able to reach regions esp those with scant
representation from museums and universities etc. And the time is certainly
right with the technology we have now.
Best wishes
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: The Geological Curator's Group mailing list
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Giles Miller
Sent: 17 November 2013 23:37
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: NATIONAL FOSSIL RECORDING SCHEME?
Yes I echo that thanks. The recent discussion was surely what we set up this
discussion list to encourage.
There were a lot of messages in a short period of time so apologies if I am
covering anything someone else said. There are certainly a lot of potential
collaborators for a fossil recording initiative with the GCG. Could I also
suggest The Palaeontological Association and also the Palaeontographical
Society? If we are going to appeal to a wide audience from academics to
first time collectors then they would be a good group to collaborate with,
especially if we are looking to validate data.
Personally I think we should try to develop some sort of fossil App that can
be downloaded onto smart phones. I know that the BGS are already delivering
information in this way and the NHM have also developed an Evolution App. A
lot of this technology has already been developed so with a good lists of
collaborators and the help of citizen scientists, it would be a very useful
resource to profile museum collections and important sites (a lot of
discussion needed regarding how much info is given away about key sites). It
also fits well with recent GCG collaborations to develop an English
Geodiversity Charter (there is already a Scottish one) and a very recent
approach to become involved in a group looking at recording data from
regional collections.
All the best,
Giles
________________________________________
From: The Geological Curator's Group mailing list
[[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Philip Hadland
[[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 7:52 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: NATIONAL FOSSIL RECORDING SCHEME?
Thanks all
I'd be happy for this to be discussed at the agm and a special meeting
sounds like a great idea. A scheme that pulls together the best of british
fossils in museums and new finds would not only be a great research engine
but would also help justify spending on the science. My feeling is that
collections need to be more dynamic in general using the citizen science
idea so people feel like they are a part of it.
----- Original Message -----
From: Consuelo Sendino [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 06:27 PM GMT Standard Time
To: Philip Hadland; [log in to unmask]
<[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: NATIONAL FOSSIL RECORDING SCHEME?
Hi All
I think it is a really good idea and it is the right moment to start with a
national fossil recording scheme in UK. There could be an agreement between
museums/institutions/universities with fossil collections, to make visible
their e-collections through a joined Website. The British Geological Survey
is doing this with the JISC Digitisation and Content Programme for British
fossils which are being imaged in 3D (http://www.3d-fossils.ac.uk/). The
proposed Website could show any available data that have (stratigraphy,
geographical details, taxonomy and photograph if it is available) been
recorded for any specimen.
Currently there are parallel initiatives in Art museums: the largest
digital museum of art has recently been published on the Internet. The time
is ripe to join together projects to show and advertise collections through
different websites.
Recently NATSCA sent information about the traffic and usage statistics for
Europeana.eu (http://pro.europeana.eu/web/guest/traffic) where it is
possible to see that there is a paucity of UK natural history museums
contributing data.
All the best,
Consuelo
Dr Consuelo Sendino
Dep. Earth Sciences, Natural History Museum Cromwell Road, London SW7 5BD,
UK
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From: The Geological Curator's Group mailing list
[[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Philip Hadland
[[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 9:31 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: NATIONAL FOSSIL RECORDING SCHEME?
In many ways GCG (via its website) would be the ideal hub for recording and
local recording schemes could piggy back on to it. For me it's not rocket
science and just needs the right encouragement to happen but Will's very
right to remind us of how we keep things going when staff leave.
Phil
From: The Geological Curator's Group mailing list
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Will Watts
Sent: 14 November 2013 15:49
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: NATIONAL FOSSIL RECORDING SCHEME?
Hi All
We made some progress towards a recording scheme in Yorkshire a few years
ago but it is now out of use. For us we looked closely at the Jurassic Coast
model and worked with the people from the World Heritage site and also with
Jonathan Larwood etc from Natural England. If such a discussion was to start
again locally (which for me is the only way it would work, as each area has
it's own set of challenges) this would be that starting point again,
alongside engagement with collectors/landowners/local authorities/National
Trust/universities etc etc
I am sure the major factor in this would all come back to time and who
can/should lead this. I currently do not have any answer there, especially
as I am leaving Scarborough Museums in December as part of a restructuring,
so that only adds to the gap in provision (although I hope to continue to be
involved with geology/museums etc moving forward)!
Sadly I cannot be in Canterbury but I hope you have a productive AGM.
Will
Will Watts
Head of Public Programmes
PLEASE NOTE: I will be leaving Scarborough Museums Trust on 6 December
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From: The Geological Curator's Group mailing list
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cindy Howells
Sent: 14 November 2013 15:29
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: NATIONAL FOSSIL RECORDING SCHEME?
Good questions.
I'm trying to set up a recording scheme for South Wales, but have very
little time to actually implement it. I suspect that with the ease of
networking these days it would be more practical for each area to have its
own, which could have a linking page from the GCG website. I don't think
that a London-run version would be suitable right now as many local
collectors may be wary of such a scheme.
I'm treading delicate ground, getting my local collectors to trust me. So
far no problems, but I suspect there are some out there who don't let on
what they've found.
This would actually be a great topic for debate at a meeting sometime - but
perhaps it could be the subject of an entire seminar, with case studies and
examples of good and bad site management etc, - perhaps next year's AGM?
British Palaeontological research? More difficult to assess. Do you mean
taxonomical research?
That is traditionally carried out in museums and will certainly have been
hit badly - particularly invertebrate-wise.
(Funnily I just came across a list in the GCG archive of subject specialists
in museums, complied in about 1975, just after GCG was set up. There were
many more palaeo specialists then!!!)
It might be interesting to produce a list of who is active in taxonomical
research in the UK right now, but might be difficult to do.
I am trying to keep a running list of which museums have geological curators
still.....
Cindy
Cindy Howells
GCG membership secretary
Collections Manager (Palaeontology)
Department of Geology,
National Museum of Wales,
Cathays Park,
Cardiff,
CF10 3NP
Phone 029 2057 3354
_____________________
Geological Curators' Group
Next meeting 3th/4th December 2103, Canterbury http://www.geocurator.org
From: The Geological Curator's Group mailing list
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Philip Hadland
Sent: 14 November 2013 14:59
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: NATIONAL FOSSIL RECORDING SCHEME?
Hi All
Topic for discussion
Should there be a national fossil recording scheme? Should such a thing be
led by the NHM? Who has the time?
What is the state of British palaeontological research?
Philip Hadland
Museums and Galleries Development Officer (Collections Review) Canterbury
Museums and Galleries Canterbury City Council Culture and Enterprise
Canterbury Heritage Museum Stour Street Canterbury
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