Hi folks, At last a note of caution about this - thanks Kate. Without having time to respond in detail (again a common issue in getting effective consultaion on such initiatives) I'm deeply sceptical about the value, or feasibility of any "top down" workable scheme. As Kate points out, there are issues of defining relevant fossil material (highly subjective), but also huge resource issues (in terms of access to expertise, time for fieldwork, or sample preparation, identification, asessment etc. Also, critically, GCG, societies or museums, do not "own" geological fieldwork, or have the right to control access, or allocate ownership of bits of rock. Some might think they should; I do not. I would be very deeply worried by any attempt to use archaeological or cultural history models as an ideal for geological sampling, collecting and ownership. The legal frameworks are very different; geological science is very different; the material is very different; the scientific and economic uses of geological materials are very different. We are also dependent on fragile, and/or ad hoc and/or informal opportunities to be able to collect and preserve material, and we have to be very careful not to kill off our own activities, by enmeshing them in an unusably complex framework. Having said all this, I am strongly in favour of encouraging better recording and dissemination of information, and if good tools (eg mobile phone based) can be produced which are good enough to see community take-up, I'd be overjoyed. However, we need carrot to do this, and emphatically not stick. Apologies if this sounds a bit ranty, and/or incoherent. However, I think this issue needs to be approached lightly and cautiously, and with very wide consultation. We have to be very careful about unforeseen consequences for wider palaeontological and geological communities. Cheers John Dr JW Faithfull Hunterian Annexe Floor 1 Thurso St Building 13 Thurso St Glasgow G11 6PE E-mail: [log in to unmask] Tel: +44(0)141 330 4213 Website: www.glasgow.ac.uk/hunterian Current Exhibitions Rembrandt and the Passion - 15 September - 2 December 2012 Hagar and the Angel - 15 September 2012 - 27 January 2013 Director's Choice The Hunterian, University of Glasgow is the latest title in SCALA's acclaimed 'Director's Choice' museum guide series. Available now from www.universityofglasgowshops.com The Entire Collection cared for by The Hunterian is a Recognised Collection of National Significance to Scotland University of Glasgow, charity number SC004401 A world Top 100 University, joint first in Scotland for student satisfaction and 5th in the UK -----Original Message----- From: The Geological Curator's Group mailing list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Katherine Andrew Sent: 18 November 2013 09:34 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: NATIONAL FOSSIL RECORDING SCHEME? Just to say this is going to need a lot of money and person power to do properly. Careful guidance will be required to the public to avoid every Gryphae (or substitute here which ever is the local very common fossil species) being reported yet avoid the unscrupulous from stripping sites bare with JCBs and trailors for sorting at their leisure (which has happened). There are the county HERN databases, and the Portable Antiquities scheme as comparators. There is an opportunity to work with The Geology Trusts here, but many of these are only small with minimal or no staff . With the demise of Aggregate Levy and in current climate severe problems with revenue funding. Kate Andrew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Hadland" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2013 9:21 AM Subject: Re: NATIONAL FOSSIL RECORDING SCHEME? Any scheme would work best with the widest range of partners possible and looks good on funding applications of course. Another one would be GEOCONSERVATIONUK as would be able to reach regions esp those with scant representation from museums and universities etc. And the time is certainly right with the technology we have now. Best wishes Phil -----Original Message----- From: The Geological Curator's Group mailing list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Giles Miller Sent: 17 November 2013 23:37 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: NATIONAL FOSSIL RECORDING SCHEME? Yes I echo that thanks. The recent discussion was surely what we set up this discussion list to encourage. There were a lot of messages in a short period of time so apologies if I am covering anything someone else said. There are certainly a lot of potential collaborators for a fossil recording initiative with the GCG. Could I also suggest The Palaeontological Association and also the Palaeontographical Society? If we are going to appeal to a wide audience from academics to first time collectors then they would be a good group to collaborate with, especially if we are looking to validate data. Personally I think we should try to develop some sort of fossil App that can be downloaded onto smart phones. I know that the BGS are already delivering information in this way and the NHM have also developed an Evolution App. A lot of this technology has already been developed so with a good lists of collaborators and the help of citizen scientists, it would be a very useful resource to profile museum collections and important sites (a lot of discussion needed regarding how much info is given away about key sites). It also fits well with recent GCG collaborations to develop an English Geodiversity Charter (there is already a Scottish one) and a very recent approach to become involved in a group looking at recording data from regional collections. All the best, Giles ________________________________________ From: The Geological Curator's Group mailing list [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Philip Hadland [[log in to unmask]] Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 7:52 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: NATIONAL FOSSIL RECORDING SCHEME? Thanks all I'd be happy for this to be discussed at the agm and a special meeting sounds like a great idea. A scheme that pulls together the best of british fossils in museums and new finds would not only be a great research engine but would also help justify spending on the science. My feeling is that collections need to be more dynamic in general using the citizen science idea so people feel like they are a part of it. ----- Original Message ----- From: Consuelo Sendino [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 06:27 PM GMT Standard Time To: Philip Hadland; [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: NATIONAL FOSSIL RECORDING SCHEME? Hi All I think it is a really good idea and it is the right moment to start with a national fossil recording scheme in UK. There could be an agreement between museums/institutions/universities with fossil collections, to make visible their e-collections through a joined Website. The British Geological Survey is doing this with the JISC Digitisation and Content Programme for British fossils which are being imaged in 3D (http://www.3d-fossils.ac.uk/). The proposed Website could show any available data that have (stratigraphy, geographical details, taxonomy and photograph if it is available) been recorded for any specimen. Currently there are parallel initiatives in Art museums: the largest digital museum of art has recently been published on the Internet. The time is ripe to join together projects to show and advertise collections through different websites. Recently NATSCA sent information about the traffic and usage statistics for Europeana.eu (http://pro.europeana.eu/web/guest/traffic) where it is possible to see that there is a paucity of UK natural history museums contributing data. All the best, Consuelo Dr Consuelo Sendino Dep. Earth Sciences, Natural History Museum Cromwell Road, London SW7 5BD, UK T: 0044 (0) 207 942 5383 E: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> http://twitter.com/@BryozoanNhm <http://twitter.com/@GrantMuseum> ________________________________ From: The Geological Curator's Group mailing list [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Philip Hadland [[log in to unmask]] Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 9:31 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: NATIONAL FOSSIL RECORDING SCHEME? In many ways GCG (via its website) would be the ideal hub for recording and local recording schemes could piggy back on to it. For me it's not rocket science and just needs the right encouragement to happen but Will's very right to remind us of how we keep things going when staff leave. Phil From: The Geological Curator's Group mailing list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Will Watts Sent: 14 November 2013 15:49 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: NATIONAL FOSSIL RECORDING SCHEME? Hi All We made some progress towards a recording scheme in Yorkshire a few years ago but it is now out of use. For us we looked closely at the Jurassic Coast model and worked with the people from the World Heritage site and also with Jonathan Larwood etc from Natural England. If such a discussion was to start again locally (which for me is the only way it would work, as each area has it's own set of challenges) this would be that starting point again, alongside engagement with collectors/landowners/local authorities/National Trust/universities etc etc I am sure the major factor in this would all come back to time and who can/should lead this. I currently do not have any answer there, especially as I am leaving Scarborough Museums in December as part of a restructuring, so that only adds to the gap in provision (although I hope to continue to be involved with geology/museums etc moving forward)! Sadly I cannot be in Canterbury but I hope you have a productive AGM. Will Will Watts Head of Public Programmes PLEASE NOTE: I will be leaving Scarborough Museums Trust on 6 December 2013, any queries after that should be sent to Deborah Seymour, CEO, [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> or 01723 384503 Scarborough Museums Trust Woodend The Crescent Scarborough YO11 2PW Direct Tel: 01723 384510 www.scarboroughmuseumstrust.org.uk<UrlBlockedError.aspx> Join our mailing list HERE<UrlBlockedError.aspx> This email (and any files transmitted with it) may contain confidential or privileged information and is intended for the addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient, please be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this email in error and are not the addressee stated above, please accept our apologies and notify us by replying to this email, and then delete it without distributing copies. We thank you for your cooperation on this matter. Any opinions expressed are those of the author of the email, and do not necessarily reflect those of Scarborough Museums Trust. Although we aim to use efficient virus checking procedures we accept no liability for viruses and recipients should use their own virus checking procedures. ________________________________ From: The Geological Curator's Group mailing list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cindy Howells Sent: 14 November 2013 15:29 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: NATIONAL FOSSIL RECORDING SCHEME? Good questions. I'm trying to set up a recording scheme for South Wales, but have very little time to actually implement it. I suspect that with the ease of networking these days it would be more practical for each area to have its own, which could have a linking page from the GCG website. I don't think that a London-run version would be suitable right now as many local collectors may be wary of such a scheme. I'm treading delicate ground, getting my local collectors to trust me. So far no problems, but I suspect there are some out there who don't let on what they've found. This would actually be a great topic for debate at a meeting sometime - but perhaps it could be the subject of an entire seminar, with case studies and examples of good and bad site management etc, - perhaps next year's AGM? British Palaeontological research? More difficult to assess. Do you mean taxonomical research? That is traditionally carried out in museums and will certainly have been hit badly - particularly invertebrate-wise. (Funnily I just came across a list in the GCG archive of subject specialists in museums, complied in about 1975, just after GCG was set up. There were many more palaeo specialists then!!!) It might be interesting to produce a list of who is active in taxonomical research in the UK right now, but might be difficult to do. I am trying to keep a running list of which museums have geological curators still..... Cindy Cindy Howells GCG membership secretary Collections Manager (Palaeontology) Department of Geology, National Museum of Wales, Cathays Park, Cardiff, CF10 3NP Phone 029 2057 3354 _____________________ Geological Curators' Group Next meeting 3th/4th December 2103, Canterbury http://www.geocurator.org From: The Geological Curator's Group mailing list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Philip Hadland Sent: 14 November 2013 14:59 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: NATIONAL FOSSIL RECORDING SCHEME? Hi All Topic for discussion Should there be a national fossil recording scheme? Should such a thing be led by the NHM? Who has the time? What is the state of British palaeontological research? Philip Hadland Museums and Galleries Development Officer (Collections Review) Canterbury Museums and Galleries Canterbury City Council Culture and Enterprise Canterbury Heritage Museum Stour Street Canterbury CT1 2NR Office: 01227 475205 Mobile: 07795418996 [Description: Description: MOTY logo.JPG] [Description: cid:image002.png@01CEA01A.A2EE1970] The Beaney was shortlisted for the Art Fund Prize for Museum of the Year 2013 and for the Clore Award for Learning The Beaney Front Room Paper Apothecary won the inaugural Collections Trust and Historypin award for Participatory Practice, July 2013 The Beaney won a Sandford Award for Heritage Education, August 2013 Visit The Beaney House of Art and Knowledge, Canterbury's Art Museum, Library and Visitor Information Centre www.canterbury.co.uk/Beaney/<http://www.canterbury.co.uk/Beaney/> Visit our latest special exhibitions at The Beaney Home. Select. 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