Dear Terry
Thanks for the effort and precious time you are 'investig' into this
conversation. Whether agreeing with you or not, to some of us this exchange
of views helps a lot in understanding better where we actually stand as
professionals, and where else our ambitions could/should be aimed with a
view to becoming even better experts.
Please correct me if I didn't get it right: professionalism is the key word
in your response below to my previous post. I don't think many on this list
will dispute your view that a professional designer is "essentially" one
who would "accurately and correctly" predict and guarantee the outcomes of
whatever she/he designs as an "advice" to the client and to "society at
large", and would stand "responsible" for eventual risks and ill-effects of
those outcomes.
However the two points of your argument, on which I personally still wish
to learn more about from you, are those of 'accuracy' and 'correctness'.
You have been claiming that without the mathematical accuracy and
correctness of our predictions, these outcomes wouldn't be at all
"professional".
Dear Terry, I and many on this list still need evidence of this claim
above. Not at all in terms of an endless byzantine confrontation or some
sort of intellectual meandering. Just a few cases of proven evidence upon
which we can straightforwardly refer will do, if you have some right on
hand. Or else, make it not an affirmation; instead, a suggestion to
explore further, perhaps a hypothesis for a PhD undertaking.
I like your example of a graphic poster. Being much closer to the facts,
that will make our understanding of your point much faster and easier. Too
bad though, even with the example, you didn't go any further enlightening
my and other listers' interrogations.
Once more, here referring to your example, in a campaign inciting a
population to reduce obesity, would the technician in graphic illustration
need to know some kind of maths in order her/his technical graphic
advice/outcome - the poster image IS her/his outcome - to contribute to the
2% reduction of obesity? And Gunnar asked: "Why would a graphic designer be
making such warrantees?" And if you succeed in convincing some of us of
such a necessity, the next question will be, again, which maths or which
level of mathematical knowledge does such a technician in graphic design
need to possess?
Or else, shouldn't it rather be the conceiver of the entire obesity
campaign - her/his "design outcome is NOT the images" - who probably need
another sort of mathematical knowledge to assess the 'accuracy and
correctness' of means (among these the graphic poster) and ends (2%
reduction target) of the campaign? And even here, what kind of maths are
needed in order to assess whether or not the graphic poster proposed by the
technician, on the basis of the requirements handed on to her/him in a
design brief, will contribute or not to fulfill the goal/outcome set in he
campaign?
I, and probably together with others on the list, we are not asking you to
give a full course in Maths. Such a request would be unrealistic. We are
asking you just to give us a few pointers to where to start. In your
exemplar case as well as in reality, would a certain level of knowledge in
statistics, for instance, be enough? Or would there be a need for more
sophisticated maths that I, and many on the list, don't know of? In which
way such mathematical knowledge alone would be the pledge to
professionalism? Which precisely are those maths approaches, domains, and
methods that would 'accurately and correctly' warrant desired levels of
monetary and other kinds of returns to investors (in broad sense) and
insure a certain level of professional liability vis-à-vis the commissioner
and all other stakeholders?
What exactly is implied, as basic Maths for designers/technicians and/or
designers/conceivers, in system dynamics that you recommend? How such a
knowledge helps or would help to "address more complex problems more safely
in ethical and professional terms, and - to offer - a way of creatively
thinking about more aspects of a design than can be managed using visual
reasoning methods."
A few years back, in the mid 70s, to get initiated to Cybernetics we were
given one of those life-marking courses - given in a Design School by a
Civil engineer - on Karl Ludwig von Bertalanffy's General Systems
Theory (GST). Obviously with our very limited base in maths, we didn't get
deep into the mathematical aspects of GST. However, conceptual generalities
imparted to us then were so useful enough to stir our curiosity towards
modelling, in our - limited?? - graphical and/or verbal ways, real life
complexity in order to understand it better and intervene in it with
assurance and in more reliable and responsible ways. And I am sure some in
my cohort, following such a general exposure, those gifted or better
initiated in maths and took the course, did pursue and learnt a lot in GST
mathematical aspects by themselves or through other means.
So please, Terry, don't keep on being polemical. Rather, let's break the
walls of our respective silos. Put on your pedagogical vest and instruct us
in simple words or with more exemplar cases as above that we can understand
easily. Drawing on the assurance and resources of your academic background,
plus over 30 years research, publications, and practice in this domain,
tell us how the maths language will help us becoming more trustworthy
professionals. Meaning experts making "reliable - and ethical - prediction
of outcomes, particularly where they are changing over time"...and now more
and more in space as well.
Many thanks in advance and best regards.
Francois
On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Terence Love <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Dear Francois,
>
>
>
> Thank you for your questions. My apologies for the delay in responding to
> you. If its ok with you, I'll try to answer the questions one at a time.
>
>
>
> You asked what is probably the most significant question for all from the
> Art and Design fields about maths,
>
> <snip>' Why should I be in need of maths in order to model reality anyway?
> In which way(s) maths based models of reality are better than or superior
> to intuitive or otherwise reasoned models?
>
>
>
> Great question. Right to the point!
>
>
>
> The roles of maths that I've been pointing to are very different from what
> Oguzahn described in his paper and possibly different from what you seem to
> be thinking.
>
>
>
> The roles for maths I'm suggesting are essential in design have more to
> do
> with the essence of being a professional. They have everything to do with
> design ethics and creating successful design outcomes for clients and
> society at large, and, in contrast to Oguzhan's wonderful paper, next to
> nothing to do with graphics and visual methods of designing.
>
>
>
> This is from a perspective of seeing how design as a field seems to be
> evolving in terms of professi0onalisaiotn and addressing design situations
> that are more complicated and complex.
>
>
>
> Reading the above, I'm realising I need to do a huge chunk of background
> explaining.
>
>
>
> For any professional offering advice, the central and essential ability is
> to be able to accurately and correctly predict what will happen as a
> result
> of people taking their advice. For a designer, in essence, 'providing a
> design' is 'proffering advice to the client'. The advice is embodied in and
> around the design.
>
>
>
> To be able successfully to participate in the professional exchange between
> design t and client, it is important for the professional to be able to
> accurately predict those design outcomes and be responsible for them.
>
>
>
> As a practical example, imagine a government health services as a client
> that requires a poster that will reduce the proportion of obesity in the
> population by 2%. The intended design outcome is the '2% reduction in the
> proportion of the population who are obese'. The design outcome is NOT the
> images on the poster. The images on the poster are the intermediary to
> achieve the design outcome. The design product is also not the appearance
> of the poster, it is plan for the emotional and influential processes by
> which the poster will result in the design outcome. The content of the
> poster is a part of that. The actual images on the poster can be *anything*
> that works to result in the design outcome of reducing the proportion of
> people with obesity by 2%.
>
>
>
> The design problem then is about understanding and modelling why and how
> people will be influenced by particular kinds of poster content to the
> extent that the designer can take responsibility that they can unsure that
> the poster design they might envisage will have the design outcome of
> reducing the proportion of people with obesity by 2% or more.
>
>
>
> I suggest that visual design methods and visual design languages for the
> poster by themselves are insufficient to enable the designers to
> *guarantee* the design outcome of 2% less people with obesity. A simple
> test. Would you be happy for you to pay the costs to the government agency
> and all the individuals who might otherwise have avoided obesity if the
> design for the poster did not achieve its design outcomes of the 2%
> reduction? Would using visual language methods *guarantee* you would
> achieve
> the designed outcomes (the 2%).
>
>
>
> That kind of financial responsibility for design outcomes and advice is the
> kind of responsibility and liability usually expected of professionals. It
> is also what results in mathematical modelling methods being used to
> predict
> the design outcomes, at least to the extent sufficient to have plausible
> deniability.
>
>
>
> Being able to predict and guarantee the design outcomes, in this case the
> 2% reduction in obese people (NOT the appearance of the poster ),
> requires
> considering many factors and their interactions, including the exact
> effects
> of elements of the poster on triggering sequences of human behaviours to
> achieve the desired design outcome.. It requires being able to accurately
> and reliably predict the changes in behaviours of the future resulting from
> one's 'advice' (i.e. the poster design). To do this requires a language
> that can be manipulated to accurately predict the future and which spans
> all
> disciplines. This problem is found in all professions and over the last
> 3000 years, mathematics in all its forms has been developed as that
> particular language for that purpose. Put simply, mathematics fulfils
> those particular essential roles in professional design activity and those
> roles are different from the role of visual language.
>
>
>
> For those wishing to participate in the evolving future of design as a
> profession and have the skills to profitably address complex design
> situations, I suggest mathematical modelling will become essential,
> especially in smaller design businesses. It appears from where I stand that
> the industry of practicing of traditional design activities is likely
> to
> die off substantially under job and price pressure from software
> automation,
> DIY desktop publishing and a host of other factors, and as clients expect
> designers to be more responsible, financially and legally, for the broader
> social and financial outcomes of their designs. Regardless, if one remains
> in that traditional form of design practice, there may be no need to use
> mathematical approaches to ensuring you can correctly and accurately
> predict
> the consequent financial and social outcomes resulting from your design
> work, and visual language and visual thinking may be sufficient.
>
>
>
> The above is one of the reasons it is useful to use maths instead of
> intuitive or visual design methods to model reality and the outcomes of
> designs. Others include that the designer can address more complex problems
> more safely in ethical and professional terms, and it offers a way of
> creatively thinking about more aspects of a design than can be managed
> using
> visual reasoning methods. Mostly though, the value is in reliable
> prediction
> of outcomes, particularly where they are changing over time.
>
>
>
> For making the transition from traditional design education, the trick
> will
> be finding approaches that give the benefits of maths without having to
> learn much of it. System dynamics is one of the paths that offers that
> kind
> of leverage of knowledge and particularly supports predicting design
> outcomes.
>
>
>
> On a completely different tack, I'd love to hear what you are doing in
> Rwanda and how as a designer you made the transition from Canada to Rwanda.
> Can you say something about it?
>
>
>
> My best wishes and my apologies for the delay in responding ,
>
> Terry
>
>
>
>
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