medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I find that question very interesting and would be happy to know who
said that and why or in which sense or context. (I suppose that
inhabitants of uneventful towns and villages who never met a Jew nor
any member of any other religion [in the modern sense] would, indeed,
being Christian not make topic to debate about.) Again, would like to
know the source and the context.
Richard
On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 7:14 AM, John Shinners <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> Yes, I very much agree that there is little need to declare "Christianus
> sum" once Christianity is the only game in town (except perhaps if you're
> trying to evade or explain a charge of heresy). But I like Paul's point
> that stories of martyrs, insofar as they got repeated for catechetical
> purposes, as in a later medieval sermon, could serve as a direct if
> momentary reminder that a person was in fact privileged to be playing for
> the only team in town that counted. So, for instance, Jacobus de Voragine
> includes the story of Cyricus (Quiricus) and Julitta (where the little boy
> Cyricus bravely proclaims "Christianus sum") in the Legenda Aurea where it
> presumably could be lifted as a sermon exemplum. Christine F.
> Cooper-Rompato sifts through some of these instances of religious child
> prodigies (and refers both to Cyricus and Paul's St. Rumwold) in The Gift
> of Tongues: Women's Xenoglossia in the Later Middle Ages.
>
> Best,
> John
>
>
> On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 10:23 PM, MAUREEN Tilley [Staff/Faculty [FCLC]]
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>> Best not to confuse the Christianus/a sum of the third and fourth
>> centuries with any notion of being distinctively Christian several centuries
>> later. The first comes from the self-identification of a minority group and
>> the latter is, as they say, a horse of a different color' if not a
>> different beast altogether. When no one you know personally is of a
>> different faith and the people you do know are simply literary stereotypes,
>> it's a very different situation.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 9:37 PM, John Shinners <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>>> Great point, Paul. Early martyr Perpetua says this very thing--and very
>>> defiantly--and off the top of my head I also think of Cyricus and Julitta.
>>> There have to be lots more. I hadn't thought of that when I wrote "I am a
>>> Christian" in my post, but now you make me think that this would be a
>>> fruitful thing to explore. I'm trying to work out those moments when
>>> ordinary Christians might be aware of their Christianity; a saint's legend
>>> used as a sermon exempla would be potent teaching tool for impressing their
>>> faith on people. I'll have to search down that road.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 8:52 PM, Paul Chandler
>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>>> culture
>>>>
>>>> John, many Christian martyr stories have their high point in the
>>>> declaration "Christianus sum", after which the martyr is condemned
>>>> (Boyarin's Dying for God also has something about this, I think, but I don't
>>>> have the book to hand). The declaration is still enacted, for example, in
>>>> the 11th-c vita of St Rumwold of Buckingham, whose first words on being born
>>>> are "Christianus sum". Could this kind of story-telling be just as potent
>>>> for identity formation as meeting a non-Christian? -- Paul
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 1 June 2013 10:24, V. K. Inman <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>>>> culture
>>>>> Daniel Boyarin has argued something like this for the Hebrew faith,
>>>>> which he says was not "Judaism" until later. But, I don't remember this
>>>>> being argued of Christians.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would find it hard to believe that Christians living in Andalus
>>>>> before the reconquest had never met a Jew or Muslim. And what of the
>>>>> crusaders? Did they never have close encounters with Jews or Muslims ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Boyarin's argument is on different grounds. It seems to be that the
>>>>> Jews did not see themselves as a religion but a people.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you haven't read it already, you might find: _The Spectral Jew:
>>>>> Conversion and Embodiment in Medieval Europe_, Steven F. Kruger 2005;
>>>>> instructive in this regard.
>>>>>
>>>>> V. K. Inman
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 5:37 PM, John Shinners
>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>>>>> culture
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does anyone recall the name of the modern medievalist who has argued
>>>>>> that the concept of “religion” was not something most medieval people would
>>>>>> even think to use to define themselves (as in “I am a Christian”) because
>>>>>> the vast majority of Europeans were baptized Christians from birth and
>>>>>> seldom had opportunity to interact with non-Christians? Christianity was a
>>>>>> given, no more necessary to proclaim than "I am human." I’m not sure I buy
>>>>>> the idea since even if someone never met a Jew or Muslim, these groups had
>>>>>> become so demonized in the abstract that someone could not help feel
>>>>>> satisfaction in belonging to the “right” religion. Or am I imagining I
>>>>>> heard this not so long ago? Any insights are most welcome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> John Shinners
>>>>>> Professor, Schlesinger Chair in Humanistic Studies
>>>>>> Saint Mary's College
>>>>>> Notre Dame, Indiana 46556
>>>>>> Phone: 574-284-4494 or 574-284-4534
>>>>>> Fax: 284-4855
>>>>>> www.saintmarys.edu/~hust
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Learn everything. Later you will see that nothing is superfluous." --
>>>>>> Hugh of St. Victor (d. 1141)
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Paul Chandler, O.Carm.
>>>> Holy Spirit Seminary | PO Box 18 (487 Earnshaw Road) | Banyo Qld
>>>> 4014 | Australia
>>>> office: (07) 3246 9888 | home: (07) 3246 9894
>>>> [log in to unmask]
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> John Shinners
>>> Professor, Schlesinger Chair in Humanistic Studies
>>> Saint Mary's College
>>> Notre Dame, Indiana 46556
>>> Phone: 574-284-4494 or 574-284-4534
>>> Fax: 284-4855
>>> www.saintmarys.edu/~hust
>>>
>>> "Learn everything. Later you will see that nothing is superfluous." --
>>> Hugh of St. Victor (d. 1141)
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Maureen A. Tilley
>> Professor of Theology and Medieval Studies
>> Fordham University
>> 113 West 60th Street
>> New York, NY 10023
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>
>
>
>
> --
> John Shinners
> Professor, Schlesinger Chair in Humanistic Studies
> Saint Mary's College
> Notre Dame, Indiana 46556
> Phone: 574-284-4494 or 574-284-4534
> Fax: 284-4855
> www.saintmarys.edu/~hust
>
> "Learn everything. Later you will see that nothing is superfluous." -- Hugh
> of St. Victor (d. 1141)
> ********************************************************************** To
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--
Dr. Paul Richard Blum
( T.J. Higgins, S.J., Chair in Philosophy)
Loyola University Maryland
4501 North Charles Street
Baltimore, MD 21210
[log in to unmask]
410-617-2815
http://renaissancephilosophy.blogspot.com/
http://existenceandanthropology.blogspot.com/
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