Paul
I wasn't saying that the issue raised by Alan Sloan was not directly related to the study of statistics (clearly it is), but merely that it was good to hear a contributor apologising (as AS did) for bringing up an issue that he said was "more about psychology than statistics", unlike those who have brought up political issues that made no pretence of being about statistics.
Paul Ashton
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Bivand" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, 6 March, 2013 11:52:23 AM
Subject: Re: RADSTATS Digest - 4 Mar 2013 to 5 Mar 2013 (#2013-37)
I'd dispute that the issue raised is a discipline other than statistics.
Statistics includes the production as well as use of statistics, and response rates, and minimising survey and item non-response is always a key feature.
Statistics does include how we persuade people to divulge information, and the biases this process produces on the resulting numbers. It's a 'do the numbers actually measure what we think they measure?' question.
It's been evident that surveys on 'real unemployment' among the IB claimants conducted by academics like the Sheffield Hallam team produce different answers from ONS surveys and different again from those preceded by a statement that the research is commissioned by the Department for Work and Pensions. The use made of those differences is another case study....
The Commercial surveys as opposed to government - may have incentives that are worthwhile (but maybe not). Some Government research has had incentives. More so these days for qualitative than quant surveys. Academic surveys less likely to have incentives unless a strong case is made.
Paul
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-----Original Message-----
From: email list for Radical Statistics [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul Ashton
Sent: 06 March 2013 11:24
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: RADSTATS Digest - 4 Mar 2013 to 5 Mar 2013 (#2013-37)
It's good to hear someone actually apologise for discussing an issue that is more about a discipline other than the subject matter of this group: statistics. As a member for less than a year, I have been disappointed at the lack of concentration on statistics -- their use and abuse. The discussions here over my time have been mainly about politics, divorced from any kind of statistical content -- methods or use of stats -- and most often initiated by one particular person constantly slagging off certain politicians and political parties.
With regard to people who are reluctant to take part in government-sponsored research but are okay with commercial surveys I'm of the opinion that, for many, the reason for this is more to do with the perceived risk of being found out doing something they shouldn't be doing, e.g. claiming benefits they're not entitled to or not paying taxes they are liable for, than merely fighting the intrusion of Big Brother/Sister.
Paul Ashton
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Sloan" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, 6 March, 2013 10:45:14 AM
Subject: Re: RADSTATS Digest - 4 Mar 2013 to 5 Mar 2013 (#2013-37)
Apologies for wandering slightly off topic here, the following is more about psychology than statistics, but someone may know of some statistical work which would prove or disprove my assertions.
This conference is not something I can attend but as a door to door data collector I actually had a discussion about surveys with two "random" people yesterday -
1. Would not participate in any research unless required to by law - eg The Census, but he was very happy to do that.
2. Would "avoid any Government research like the plague" but enjoys the attention they get from commercial surveys.
Many people do not think in either of those terms but the point is there is a whole spectrum of views and feelings about being part of a bureaucratically enumerated population.
Census data is complementary to other sources of data - it also provides a method of checking and calibrating other methods as well as a source of info for choosing sampling points. The imperfect physical reality of counting every person even travellers and itinerants goes further than any commercial data source can.
Other methods (suggested by my local MP!) are arguably as accurate or nearly so (??), but raise some philosophical and psychological questions about the underlying relationships between Individuals, Commerce, Internet and the State. I sometimes get references to Big Brother during my interactions on the doorstep. These comments are usually fearful or slightly anxious. Less often does anyone mention Big Sister who is looking after their Public Health, Education or Welfare. There is often a distinct discomfort about being 'merged into a lumpen' which may be expressing itself in the rise in the vote UKIP for example, fear- politics in general or even just a low turnout at elections, participation and a feeling of hopelessness. Disentangling cause and effect may be beyond science.
It seems to me one big advantage of a state controlled physical count is that it is an explicit statement of Civic Identity which is separate from any economic or political agenda. (The occasional Census Objector who argues that the State has no business counting his/her as an individual is doing us a service imho - I disagree, but the whole question should to be looked at occasionally).
Am I in a minority in thinking the debate about the Future of the Census is largely a political / psychological one, or are there more technical issues that I'm not aware of?
Alan
On 6 March 2013 00:08, RADSTATS automatic digest system < [log in to unmask] > wrote:
There is 1 message totaling 383 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Fwd: Beyond 2011 Research Conference - booking now open
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Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 17:25:13 +0000
From: Humphrey Southall < [log in to unmask] >
Subject: Fwd: Beyond 2011 Research Conference - booking now open
The public announcement of the "future of the census" meeting I mentioned at our York conference:
Begin forwarded message:
> From: "Martin D.J." < [log in to unmask] >
> Subject: FW: Beyond 2011 Research Conference - booking now open
> Date: 5 March 2013 16:51:39 GMT
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Reply-To: "Martin D.J." < [log in to unmask] >
>
> Dear All
> Please note this Beyond 2011 Research Conference on 30 April/1 March.
> (Please note that although this is being held at the University of
> Southampton it is being organized by ONS and I am therefore unable to
> answer any administrative enquiries)
>
> Kind regards
> Dave Martin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [log in to unmask] [mailto: [log in to unmask] ]
> Sent: 04 March 2013 14:12
> To: Martin D.J.
> Subject: Beyond 2011 Research Conference - booking now open
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> The ONS Beyond 2011 Programme is holding a research conference in
> collaboration with ESRC and BSPS on Tuesday 30th April - Wednesday 1st
> May at the University of Southampton (the agenda for the conference is
> attached to this email). The conference will form part of our external
> quality assurance process.
>
> (See attached file: Beyond 2011 Research Conference Agenda.docx)
>
> I am pleased to advise that booking for this event is now open -
> places are limited and will be allocated on a first come, first served
> basis. To reserve your place, please go to the following link:
> http://events.eventmanagerpro.com/ons/1
>
> Please note that booking will close on Wednesday 27 March 2013.
>
> Please contact us on the details below if you have any queries.
>
> We do hope that you will be able to attend this event.
>
> Regards,
> Beyond 2011 Programme
>
> Office for National Statistics | Segensworth Road | Titchfield |
> Hampshire
> | PO15 5RR
> Phone: +44 (0) 1329 44 7987
> Email: [log in to unmask]
> http://www.statistics.gov.uk/
>
>
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> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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> Geography and Environment Tel: +44 (0) 23 8059 3808
> University of Southampton Fax: +44 (0) 23 8059 3295
> Southampton
> SO17 1BJ
> United Kingdom
>
> ESRC UK Data Service http://www.ukdataservice.ac.uk
> ESRC National Centre for Research Methods: http://www.ncrm.ac.uk
> ESRC ReStore project: http://www.restore.ac.uk
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>
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