Sept. 29
Dear Ethan,
You are right. For those who are trained in the study of religion, the relationship between religion and magic is a long-standing issue on which there are at least a dozen positions. And of course so much depends on the definition of each. It is by no means assumed--that is, by those with academic credentials--that magic is always tied to religion or vice versa.
One apt starting point is the classic RELIGION AND THE DECLINE OF MAGIC by the English historian Keith Thomas.
Robert Segal
________________________________________
From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ethan Doyle White [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 8:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Religious Teachings
Hello there!
Jon Sharp's take on my message was exactly as I intended; there are many areas of religion that do clearly intersect with magic, but equally there are many more than do not, and I do not see what relevence a discussion of these unrelated topics has on an "Academic Study of Magic" message board. So far we have begun to talk about both the dangers of Salafist Islam and the comparison that can be made between the development of Protestantism and contemporary Islam, despite the fact that neither of these topics are directly related (or indeed, one could argue, indirectly related), to the academic study of magic.
Are we next to talk about issues regarding ethics in Zoroastrianism, or succumb to a criticism of the practices of the Church of Scientology ? How about a discussion of the comparative merits of various Popes, or a debate as to how Shinto is portrayed in the works of Hayao Miyazaki ? I fear that unless we draw the line somewhere, ultimately this list will simply descend into a general "Discussion on Religion" group, and this is not what I, or I suspect many others, signed up for. Although such irrelevent threads are hardly a major menace to my life, it is ever so slightly annoying to find them clogging up my email account on what seems like a daily basis recently. There must be multiple forums for the general academic study of religion out there, but this is not one of them.
In response to Morgan Leigh's message, in no way did I mean to suggest that there was no connection between magical beliefs and/or praxes and Islam. Indeed, through close personal connections with members of the British Pakistani community I've come across tales of Islamic folk magic which I found to be thoroughly fascinating.
All the best to all!
Ethan Doyle White
Greater London
> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 15:15:09 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Religious Teachings
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> My take on Ethan's comment was that he was arguing that religions are intrinsically linked to magical beliefs and or their praxes, but that not every discussion about religion would necessarily be relevant to those aspects of religion/ religious belief that are related in some way to magical beliefs and or praxes
> Bw
> Jon
> ________________________________________
> From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Morgan Leigh [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 28 September 2012 16:03
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Religious Teachings
>
> Greetings Ethan,
> Please supply an example of any religion that is "not directly linked to
> magical beliefs and/or praxes in any way". If you are suggesting that
> Islam fits this category then I expect N.W. Azal to post in 3..2..1..
>
> Regards,
>
> Morgan Leigh
> PhD Candidate
> School of Sociology and Social Work
> University of Tasmania
>
> On 23/09/2012 1:54 AM, Ethan Doyle White wrote:
> > Dear all
> >
> > As much as I do happen to find this thread rather interesting, I do have
> > to support the claim that is is "off-topic" and therefore not
> > appropriate material for this "Academic Study of Magic" list. It is a
> > discussion of the development of a world religion, and not directly
> > linked to magical beliefs and/or praxes in any way. Yes, religion and
> > magic are intrinsically linked, as I'm sure we would all recognise, but
> > surely this does not open up this list to a discussion of any topic
> > related to religion in any way.
> >
> > My best to all
> >
> > Ethan Doyle White
> > London
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 10:10:38 +0100
> > From: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Religious Teachings
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Friends
> >
> > Magick is part of religion (and studies) or in some cases is a religion
> > in its own right.
> > Magick has often been involved in political phenomena - eg renaissance
> > philosophy/humanism; 3rd Reich etc.
> > Magick often has ethical implications - ethics and politics are clearly
> > related.
> > I also find some of the discussions about theory interesting - ie
> > accusations of "Orientalism", reductionism etc etc.
> > The rise of radical islam/fundamentalism seems like something we ought
> > to be informed about for sure, especially as a great deal of
> > magical tradition of the west comes via Islam.
> > I suppose I'd say that magick as in paganism may have an answer or
> > response to fundamentalism ie Pagan values are pluralistic.
> >
> > Perhaps the problem is the size of the topic -
> > and the fact somehave already objected -
> > but there again i not sure why if things are in clear threads on an
> > elist those who are bored with it can't just skip over it?
> >
> > bb/93
> >
> > Mogg
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Personally I don't think that this is off topic and it is
> > interesting to read James' response. I tend to agree with him too.
> >
> > My own understanding of magick is heavily influenced by religion. It
> > would seem to me to be hard to separate the two.
> >
> > David
> >
> >
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