Firstly I'd like to thank you for taking so much time to engage with
this question Khem. Your answers are always amazing and detailed.

When I spoke of following the Stoics in the order of elements I was
referring to their conceptions regarding the cycle of transformations
and condensations which describe the life cycle of the universe. This
cycles has Fire first, which then condenses into Air, and then Water and
Earth are produced as solidifications of Air.

For me, circle construction is an enacting of the creation of the
manifest universe, an echo of the flow of the divine light down from the
unmanifest into the manifest world. I see this process, as described
Qabbalistically, (and echoed astrologically and in the Tarot), as the
exemplar for my circle practice. This is why I referred to the
abovementioned cycle of the Stoics. To me the ritual enactment of this
process, this primal move, seems a better choice than the enactment of
the processes we see in the physical world. The choice of seasons, and
the path of the Sun as an echo for same, instead of this is a practice
more focused on echoing nature as we see it around us than the
metaphysical exemplar I prefer.

Why does it seem better to use the metaphysical shape of the universe
rather than the physical shape? I suppose the fact that I have lived my
entire life in the Southern Hemisphere has been a prime factor is my
coming to this position. While the astrological reason you give for
following the seasons make perfect sense to me, (it is a simple,
rational mathematical plan), I think it is probably the lack of an echo
of this mathematics in the world I experience which makes it not a prime
choice for me. Yes, there is high summer and high winter, and the
equinoxes etc happen, but the seasons are fuzzy about the edges as we
experience them here. Moreover the fact that there is variance here in
the South has led me to wonder how one might enact a circle elsewhere.
Say, on another planet. The move to another planet would break the
astrological/seasonal method you cite, while the Qabbalistic explanation
of the construction of physical matter would still hold.
Having being raised on a diet of golden age science fiction I have
always held a dream to visit another planet and this desire has
permeated my magical thinking and

Regards,

Morgan Leigh
PhD Candidate
School of Sociology and Social Work
University of Tasmania

On 18/05/2012 6:27 AM, Khem Caigan wrote:
> On 5/16/2012 @ 10:53 PM, Morgan Leigh doth schreibble :
>>
>> Indeed, but if we were to follow the Stocis we should have to move
>> clockwise always and label the movement as being from Fire to Air to
>> Water to Earth, which does not fit with the astrological model we have.
> 
> This does not follow, Morgan - it is all about what
> practitioners observe with regard to their /local
> horizon/ - one's local horizon is the "privileged
> frame".
> 
> Stoics were cognizant of the fact that /appearances/
> made for diversity of observation - in the case of the
> observer on the ground, it is simply /pragmatic/ to
> proceed from personal experience. Even contemporary
> astronomers still speak of 'sunrise' and 'sunset',
> despite the fact that they 'know' that the Earth
> rotates.
> 
> (The Stoics also broke with Aristotle in making no
> distinction between sublunar and celestial physics/
> processes, by-the-way.)
> 
> As I stated previously, it is primarily the Four Seasons
> and *not* the Signs of the Zodiac that determine the
> Assignments of the Four Elements to the Four Directions
> of the Compass.
> 
> The Spring of the Year is attributed to Air in both
> Hemispheres, even though the Spring of the Southern
> Hemisphere occurs during the Autumn of the Northern
> Hemisphere.
> 
> Likewise, the Autumn of the Year is attributed to
> Earth in both Hemispheres, although the Autumn of
> the Southern Hemisphere occurs during the Spring of
> the North.
> 
> A practitioner facing North in the Southern Hemisphere
> throughout the Course of a Day will witness the Sun
> rising in the East at their right hand, and moving in
> a /counter-clockwise/ direction as it sweeps up to Noon
> in the North and then down to the West at their left
> hand.
> 
> This gives the Cycle Air - Fire - Earth - Water, and
> not (as you state above) "Fire to Air to Water to Earth".
> 
> Take another look at the Astral Rebis (which is drawn
> from the perspective of a practitioner in the Northern
> Hemisphere):
> 
> *Astral Rebis*
> http://tinyurl.com/yjrkbgb
> 
> Beginning in the upper right hand corner, and proceeding
> clockwise, we have the sequence Air(Sanguine) - Fire(Choleric)
> - Earth(Melancholic) - Water(Phlegmatic).
> 
> Which is exactly what we find in the Southern Hemisphere.
> 
> The zero point for the Vernal Equinox in the Southern
> Hemisphere is in the Sign of Libra, not Aries.
> 
> Coincidentally, Kabbalists associate the Autumnal Equinox
> in the Sign of Libra with the creation of Adam, and
> Tishrei is the first month of the Jewish year ( "This
> month shall be unto you the beginning of months; it shall
> be the first month of the year to you." ~ Exodus 12:2 ).
> 
> And I think it is well-known that the ancient Celts
> associated the festival of Samhain with the New Year.
> 
> Twilight times (dawn and dusk) often mirror syzygynous
> events and situations.
> 
> Many of the Stoics were adept astronomers / astrologers:
> Manilius and Aratus immediately come to mind. And they
> were quite familiar with all of the asterisms of the
> Southern Hemisphere, I might add - see:
> 
> *Manilius and Aratus: Two Stoic Poets on Stars*
> by Josephe-Henriette Abry (.PDF)
> @Leeds.ac.uk
> http://tinyurl.com/7gvowqe
> 
> See also:
> 
> *Julius Firmicus Maternus: Profile of a Roman (Stoic) Astrologer*
> by David McCann
> @SkyScript.co.uk
> http://tinyurl.com/8ye7xow
> 
> *Ancient Astrology Theory and Practice*
> by Firmicus Maternus (.PDF)
> <transl. by Jean Rhys Bram>
> @Scribd.com
> http://tinyurl.com/cunmmgp
> 
> *Touches of Sweet Harmony: Pythagorean Cosmology
> and Renaissance Poetics*
> by Simeon Kahn Heninger, 1974.
> 
> *Divina Quaternitas: A Preliminary Study in the Method
> and Application of Visual Exegesis*
> by Anna C. Esmeijer, 1978, ISBN9023215672.
> 
> *Hot Dry Men, Cold Wet Women: The Theory of Humors
> in Western European Art, 1575-1700*
> by Zirka Zaremba Filipczak, 1997.
> 
> Cors in Manu Domine,
> 
> 
> ~ Khem Caigan
> <[log in to unmask]>
> 
> "Heat and Moisture are Active to Generation;
> Cold and Dryness are Passive, in and to each thing;
> Fire and Air, Active by Elementation;
> Water and Earth, Passive to Generation."
> 
> 'Of the Division of Chaos'
> -Dr. Simon Forman

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