medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: Cecilia Gaposchkin <[log in to unmask]>
> Raymond talks about singing an office of praise in 1099 to thank God for
being able to take Jerusalem.
yes, that's clear enough --even to the Melodiously Challenged.
>He calls this the "officium de resurrectione."
yes.
>I am just trying to figure out what that would have referred to. Given the
circumstance, it must have been an existing office;
why do you say that?
> given the place and circumstance, I thought the Easter liturgy would have
been appropriate for the connotations of Victory and Resurrection that the
taking of the city must have evoked.
the Easter liturgy in July....mmmm....
perhaps it was an usually cold summer?
>Indeed, a new and fancy office was written in this wake.
how do you know that?
>According to Amnon Linder
http://jewishhistory.huji.ac.il/Profs/HU/history/linder.htm
["Abstracts of Current Research: The evolution of the Liberation-of-Jerusalem
liturgy: This study analyzes the evolution of the special liturgical
observances evolved during the twelfth century in the Crusaders' Kingdom of
Jerusalem to commemorate the liberation of the city in 1099."]
>one survives that dates to about 1120.
yes, but why do you think that office "was written in the wake" of the
celebration of it that Ray notes took place on 15 July, 1099?
esp. since you seem to think (below) that there was an "*existing* office
[that] the crusader-camp-clerics turned to in 1099" ?
Sasquatch hunters and Mare's Nesters all over the planet could become
confused...
[btw, the Latin Patriarch of J. in the later 1120s was from Chartres --is
there a _de resurrectione_ office in the 12th c. Chartres ordinal, Jim?]
>I'm increasingly convinced his dating is probably right, though I haven't
actually seen the manuscript yet (which is 13th c). It follows the text of
Raymond of Aguiliers in a compilation, though I don't think it should be
attached to that text.
and yet, Ray is our first source for its celebration in the [Soon-2-Be] Latin
Kingdom, is he not?
surely the presence of his Historia right next to that office in the ms. is
not coincidental, is it?
>Holy Sepulchre manuscripts which date to after the rededication of the Holy
Sepulchre,
that's what, in the 1140s?
>and one to the Jerusalem Temple, include a revised office, which is clearly
related but quite different from the ca. 1120 office.
someone should do a general study on the changes in liturgy reflected in
ordinal, etc. necessitated by or coincidental with rebuildings or
rededications.
>By the time the Kingdom was exiled to Acre, the role of the feast is unclear
to me. It appears in some calendars, but not all, and very few post 1187
manuscripts.
well, the very Site of the Resurrection was no longer under their feet, was
it?
>This is all in the future, and makes utter sense; What I am simply trying to
ascertain was what *existing *office the crusader-camp-clerics turned to in
1099.
rather than one they made up on the spot (or adapted) for the Joyous
Occasion...
>My understanding is that the liturgy in use by the Eastern Christians in,
say, 1095 in the Holy Sepulchre was highly Byzantinized; but in 1099 I imagine
they turned to Western sources they brought with them.
why?
was there a _de resurrectione_ office celebrated in the West --perhaps
specifically in "a Norman liturgical setting" as Kurt suggested yesterday as
one of Ray's possible sources?
>Of course, its not clear whether at this point the Eastern clergy were part
of the "ivimus" that the first person plural of cantavimus indicates.
i suppose that new liturgical "offices" rarely Sucked Themselves Out of Their
Own Fingers (to use Irwin Panofsky's teacher's happy phrase --from another
context) so, assuming that Ray was caught up in a totally new, ad hoc
celebration is something of an Uphill Slog.
but, if you can't find any other evidence for it before Ray's account (such as
it is) and the 1120s ms. --if it's not known to survive in the Eastern liturgy
(or even the Norman liturgy), what *is* he talking about?
ahhhh...i see: *that's* what you wish to find out.
well, good luck with that, and do let us know how it works out for you.
> thanks to all; And keep on musing if you have more muses to make.
"musing" is Fun.
it's writing it all down in a Coherent form that's the real Work, isn't it?
c
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