medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
The Chanson de Roland (c.1100 - though the MS is later) has Roland joining
his hands together as he dies, in a gesture students always see as prayer
and which I have taken as largely a feudal one - but expressing through
symbolism the link between man's relationship with God and the human
relationship between a vassal and his lord.
Happy New Year to all
Marianne (Ailes)
On Mon, January 2, 2012 1:58 pm, Christopher Crockett wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> if, as you say, Paul, the "joined hands" replaced the "orans" in the 12th
> c.
> (and i can't think of any earlier representations of it, off the top of my
> head, though Le Goff [see below] seems to imply that it may have gone back
> to
> even the 8th c.), it seems to me to be too much of a coincidence to say
> that
> the vassalage gesture --which was coming into such prominence at precisely
> the
> same time-- had no influence on the spiffy new prayer gesture.
>
> this is, after all, the age in which the devil's dominion over this world
> --due to Adam's reckless following of Eve's foolishness-- was seen in
> quite
> "feudal" terms.
>
> (and, if not from there, where *did* the new one come from?)
>
> i've not read Le Goff but, as i (dimly) recall, the whole vassal/overlord
> thingie consisted not just of the _fidelis_ putting his hands together,
> but of
> his _dominus_ putting his hands together as well, *outside* of the joined
> hands of the kneeler.
>
> i must have gotten this idea from somewhere (other than Le Goff), and the
> only
> thing i can think of is Marc Bloch's Feudal Society
>
> ahhh.... Le Goff's description of the _immixtio manum_ is available here,
> on
> pp. 241ff.:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/7m86e9m
>
> "...the vassal places his joined hands between the hands of his lord,
> which
> close over them."
>
> c
>
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> Received: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 11:06:49 AM EST
> From: Paul Chandler <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [M-R] hands joined in prayer
>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>> culture
>>
>> I think that the development of the joined hands in the "immixtio
>> manuum"
>> ritual which Graham mentions has a different development from the joined
>> hands in the prayer gesture. Le Goff wrote on the former in “The
>> Symbolic
>> Ritual of Vassalage”, Time, Work, and Culture in the Middle Ages, trans.
>> Arthur Goldhammer, Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1980, 237–87.
>> Perhaps there is something more recent. -- Paul
>>
>>
>> On 1 January 2012 21:51, Graham Jones <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>> culture
>> > The same posture is found in images of knights and others professing
>> > loyalty. My memory is of being taught that the ceremony of fealty
> involved
>> > the subject putting their hands together - symbolising submission
>> since
> no
>> > hand is free to draw a weapon or make a gesture of dissent - and
>> having
>> > these enclosed by the lord's hands in turn, symbolising trust and
>> > protection. However, there will be those on the List with a much
>> better
> and
>> > more recent take on this, and when/how it entered Christian usage. It
>> is,
>> > of course, very different to the 'Orans' position.
>> >
>> > Happy New Year!
>> >
>> > Graham
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> > *From:* medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval
>> religious
>> > culture [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ruth
>> Krindle_NJI
> [
>> > [log in to unmask]]
>> > *Sent:* 01 January 2012 03:13
>> > *To:* [log in to unmask]
>> > *Subject:* Re: [M-R] hands joined in prayer
>> >
>> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>> > culture
>> > To the question which posture - I was looking at a photo of an
>> > early-twelfth century French sculpture of a an adolescent (probably an
>> > oblate) standing in front adult monk. The boy has his head bowed and
>> his
>> > hands joined in what we know consider to be the prayer position.
>> Both
> his
>> > hands are together, in front of him, at his waist level, the fingers
>> > pointing outward from his body. I found myself assuming that he was
>> > praying and then began to wonder about the assumption.
>> >
>> >
>> > Ruth
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>>
>> --
>> Paul Chandler, O.Carm.
>> Holy Spirit Seminary | PO Box 18 (487 Earnshaw Road) | Banyo Qld
>> 4014
>> | Australia
>> office: (07) 3246 9888 | home: (07) 3246 9894
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