medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
if, as you say, Paul, the "joined hands" replaced the "orans" in the 12th c.
(and i can't think of any earlier representations of it, off the top of my
head, though Le Goff [see below] seems to imply that it may have gone back to
even the 8th c.), it seems to me to be too much of a coincidence to say that
the vassalage gesture --which was coming into such prominence at precisely the
same time-- had no influence on the spiffy new prayer gesture.
this is, after all, the age in which the devil's dominion over this world
--due to Adam's reckless following of Eve's foolishness-- was seen in quite
"feudal" terms.
(and, if not from there, where *did* the new one come from?)
i've not read Le Goff but, as i (dimly) recall, the whole vassal/overlord
thingie consisted not just of the _fidelis_ putting his hands together, but of
his _dominus_ putting his hands together as well, *outside* of the joined
hands of the kneeler.
i must have gotten this idea from somewhere (other than Le Goff), and the only
thing i can think of is Marc Bloch's Feudal Society
ahhh.... Le Goff's description of the _immixtio manum_ is available here, on
pp. 241ff.:
http://tinyurl.com/7m86e9m
"...the vassal places his joined hands between the hands of his lord, which
close over them."
c
------ Original Message ------
Received: Sun, 01 Jan 2012 11:06:49 AM EST
From: Paul Chandler <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] hands joined in prayer
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> I think that the development of the joined hands in the "immixtio manuum"
> ritual which Graham mentions has a different development from the joined
> hands in the prayer gesture. Le Goff wrote on the former in “The Symbolic
> Ritual of Vassalage”, Time, Work, and Culture in the Middle Ages, trans.
> Arthur Goldhammer, Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1980, 237–87.
> Perhaps there is something more recent. -- Paul
>
>
> On 1 January 2012 21:51, Graham Jones <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> > The same posture is found in images of knights and others professing
> > loyalty. My memory is of being taught that the ceremony of fealty
involved
> > the subject putting their hands together - symbolising submission since
no
> > hand is free to draw a weapon or make a gesture of dissent - and having
> > these enclosed by the lord's hands in turn, symbolising trust and
> > protection. However, there will be those on the List with a much better
and
> > more recent take on this, and when/how it entered Christian usage. It is,
> > of course, very different to the 'Orans' position.
> >
> > Happy New Year!
> >
> > Graham
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
> > culture [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ruth Krindle_NJI
[
> > [log in to unmask]]
> > *Sent:* 01 January 2012 03:13
> > *To:* [log in to unmask]
> > *Subject:* Re: [M-R] hands joined in prayer
> >
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> > culture
> > To the question which posture - I was looking at a photo of an
> > early-twelfth century French sculpture of a an adolescent (probably an
> > oblate) standing in front adult monk. The boy has his head bowed and his
> > hands joined in what we know consider to be the prayer position. Both
his
> > hands are together, in front of him, at his waist level, the fingers
> > pointing outward from his body. I found myself assuming that he was
> > praying and then began to wonder about the assumption.
> >
> >
> > Ruth
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>
>
> --
> Paul Chandler, O.Carm.
> Holy Spirit Seminary | PO Box 18 (487 Earnshaw Road) | Banyo Qld 4014
> | Australia
> office: (07) 3246 9888 | home: (07) 3246 9894
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