medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: Andrew Larsen <[log in to unmask]>
> But the purpose of the Crusade was to stamp out Catharism,
ostensibly, perhaps.
in the same way that the "purpose" of the Vietnam War was to prevent Ho from
landing his Yellow Hoards on the beaches of Santa Barbara and moving on up to
capture Hollywood.
>which it very distinctly did not do.
not for want of trying, however.
>Simon and the French Crown transformed the Crusade into a war of conquest
i really take issue with "transformed" there.
>that only indirectly advanced the Papacy's goals.
"indirectly"?
what more could have been done to "advance the Papacy's goals"?
my (limited) understanding is that Simon did everything he could, short of
Carpet Bombing all of Provence --which he no doubt would have done, if only he
had had sufficient B-52s to pull it off. (it was those damnéd Peacenics who
Tied his Hands, you know.)
>The establishment of inquisitors of heresy in the 1330s
*12*30s?
>demonstrates that the Crusade didn't meet papal goals.
or, perhaps it demonstrates that the crusade failed for about the same reason
that the "real" crusades in the H.L. failed --because the foreign invader was
rejected by the mass of the population and lacked sufficient numbers of B-52s
to bring them to Heel.
>My point is the secular authorities were not simply in lock-step with
ecclesiastical authorities.
maybe not lock-step, but certainly the "goals" of both parties Dovetailed
rather Conveniently.
>My own research suggests that Henry III's government in England actively
prevented papal inquisitors from establishing themselves in England, even in
cases of heresy.
i humbly submit that the English experience was not particularly analogous to
that of the Provencals.
though my knowledge of Hank 3's situation is considerably more sketchy than
even my sparse knowledge of the Albi Crusade, so perhaps i should Shut Up now.
(Applause Line).
c
> On Oct 27, 2011, at 12:07 PM, Christopher Crockett <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
>
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> >
> > From: Andrew Larsen <[log in to unmask]>
> >
> >> The Albigensian Crusade was not an inquisitorial procedure.
> >
> > i didn't intend to characterize it as such.
> >
> > i believe that i characterized it (charitably, since this is a Family
Values
> > list) as a "Land Grab."
> >
> > ....
> >
> >> ...the Albigensian Crusade actually demonstrates part of my point.
Innocent
> > III lacked the ability to enforce his judgments against Raymond and the
> > Cathars and had to resort to using secular power, which ultimately turned
the
> > Crusade from an action against heretics to an effort to conquer southern
> > France for the French Crown.
> >
> >
> > in my very limited knowledge of the revelent factoids (largely gleaned
from
> > Zoe Oldenbourg's "Destiny of Fire") the Secular Arm --headed by Simon de
> > Montfort and with more than a few Minions from the Chartrain-- was, to put
it
> > mildly, a rather enthusiastic Partner in "Innocent"'s little Project.
> >
> > and, i'm sure that it's likely that that good Son of the Church, August
Phil,
> > was more than On Board, as well.
> >
> >> Ecclesiastical authority was frequently, though not always, limited by
the
> > willingness of secular authorities to do as they were told.
> >
> > perhaps, especially when the "ecclesiastical authority" was disrupting
the
> > structure of power on which the "secular authorities" depended.
> >
> > which is why the "crusade" against the Alibes was such a happy
Co-in-sidence
> > of Interests, "ecclesiastical" and "secular".
> >
> > c
> >
> >
> >> On Oct 27, 2011, at 9:56 AM, Christopher Crockett wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> but in other cases the secular authority refused to carry out the
> > sentence.
> >>>
> >>> a fairly rare occurrence, i should assume.
> >>>
> >>> i doubt if there were many examples of this phenomenon during the Great
> > Land
> >>> Grab of Innocent3 and Mr. Montfort which we euphemistically know as the
> >>> Alibgensian "Cursade," where the Iron Fist seems to have worked rather
> >>> smoothly within the Velvet Glove of Mother Church.
> >>>
> >>> c
> >>>
> >>>> Andrew E. Larsen
> >>>> Marquette University
> >>>> On Oct 27, 2011, at 9:13 AM, Christopher Crockett wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> > culture
> >>>>>
> >>>>> thanks for the clarification, Andrew.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> actually, when i used the word i was thinking, not so much about the
> >>>>> [in]famous Spanish one but rather of what i suppose must be termed
the
> >>>>> "proto-Inquisition" (except that its sequel is a myth) which held
forth
> >>> during
> >>>>> the Albegensian Crusade.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> and, by extension, all "inquisitions" [hoping the lower case
mollifies
> >>> your
> >>>>> concerns] which held inquisitions into the question of "heresy."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> grouping them all under the rubric of "The Inquisition" was just done
> > for
> >>>>> theatrical purposes, so that i could pitch the movie version of this
> > list
> >>> to
> >>>>> some middlevillay-challenged producers i'm "doing lunch" with early
> > next
> >>>>> week.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> nevertheless, the question remains: *could* the "ecclesiastical
courts"
> > of
> >>> The
> >>>>> Inquisition --or any other "authorities" investigating/trying heresy
> >>> cases)
> >>>>> pass a death sentence?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> where is Jim Brundage when we need him?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> c
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------ Original Message ------
> >>>>> Received: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 10:00:44 AM EDT
> >>>>> From: Andrew Larsen <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Theft of metal from UK churches
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> >>> culture
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 'The Inquisition' is a scholarly myth, largely exploded by
Richard
> >>>>> Kieckhefer. Its a general consensus among scholars that I know who
work
> >>> on
> >>>>> heresy agree is correct. Regional branches of government such as the
> >>> Spanish
> >>>>> Inquisition existed, but there was no institutionalized arm of the
> >>> medieval
> >>>>> Church known as 'the Inqusition'. Instead there were individual men
> >>>>> designated to act as inquisitors. But not institutional structure,
> >>> identity,
> >>>>> or memory beyond what was provided by the Dominican Order, from which
a
> >>>>> majority of inquisitors were drawn.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Andrew E. Larsen
> >>>>>> Marquette University
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Oct 27, 2011, at 8:52 AM, Christopher Crockett wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> >>> culture
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> From: HenkADSL <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I doubt if eccles[ias]tical courts had gallows, as they were not
> >>> allowed
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>>> pronounce death sentences.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> the several victims of the Inquisition will be relieved to hear
that,
> >>>>> Hank.
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