medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Excommunication is of course not quite the same thing as a sentence passed in court, but I'd love the reference for St. Louis. My question is really for Andrew,
I'd like some specific examples of the secular arm refusing to carry out sentences passed by an ecclesiastical court, the more so given the logistical issues which you mention!
Meg
________________________________
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture on behalf of Howe, John
Sent: Thu 10/27/2011 11:20
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] Theft of metal from UK churches
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
There are many cases where secular authorities refused to lend legal support to excommunications, even, most famously, Joinville's St. Louis resisting his bishops. But they probably rarely refused to execute (expected) sentences of mutilation or death (blood justice that clerical courts should eschew), not because they were subservient to ecclesiastical courts but because of the logistics involved--such instances would have required that people in the custody of Church courts had been remanded to secular officials but ecclesiastical jurists would not have found it expedient to remand any guilty parties to the secular arm when they had reason to believe that it would not act. Logically they would sought to handle such controversial cases by using other means that did lie within their jurisdictions.
--John Howe, Texas Tech
-----Original Message-----
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Andrew Larsen
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 9:18 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] Theft of metal from UK churches
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
My understanding is that ecclesiastical courts had no power to enforce a death sentence. When they issued a death sentence, they had to turn the condemned over to a secular authority and request that their sentence be carried out. In some cases it was merely a procedural detail, but in other cases the secular authority refused to carry out the sentence.
Andrew E. Larsen
Marquette University
On Oct 27, 2011, at 9:13 AM, Christopher Crockett wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> thanks for the clarification, Andrew.
>
> actually, when i used the word i was thinking, not so much about the
> [in]famous Spanish one but rather of what i suppose must be termed the
> "proto-Inquisition" (except that its sequel is a myth) which held forth during
> the Albegensian Crusade.
>
> and, by extension, all "inquisitions" [hoping the lower case mollifies your
> concerns] which held inquisitions into the question of "heresy."
>
> grouping them all under the rubric of "The Inquisition" was just done for
> theatrical purposes, so that i could pitch the movie version of this list to
> some middlevillay-challenged producers i'm "doing lunch" with early next
> week.
>
>
> nevertheless, the question remains: *could* the "ecclesiastical courts" of The
> Inquisition --or any other "authorities" investigating/trying heresy cases)
> pass a death sentence?
>
> where is Jim Brundage when we need him?
>
> c
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> Received: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 10:00:44 AM EDT
> From: Andrew Larsen <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [M-R] Theft of metal from UK churches
>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>>
>> 'The Inquisition' is a scholarly myth, largely exploded by Richard
> Kieckhefer. Its a general consensus among scholars that I know who work on
> heresy agree is correct. Regional branches of government such as the Spanish
> Inquisition existed, but there was no institutionalized arm of the medieval
> Church known as 'the Inqusition'. Instead there were individual men
> designated to act as inquisitors. But not institutional structure, identity,
> or memory beyond what was provided by the Dominican Order, from which a
> majority of inquisitors were drawn.
>>
>>
>> Andrew E. Larsen
>> Marquette University
>>
>> On Oct 27, 2011, at 8:52 AM, Christopher Crockett wrote:
>>
>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>>>
>>> From: HenkADSL <[log in to unmask]>
>>>
>>>> I doubt if eccles[ias]tical courts had gallows, as they were not allowed
> to
>>> pronounce death sentences.
>>>
>>> ?
>>>
>>> the several victims of the Inquisition will be relieved to hear that,
> Hank.
>>
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