Hi all

I totally agree that we should not ignore any other attempts to develop fundamental analytical tools. The MIT toolbox sounds quite interesting and should not be ignored. I also agree that we need to engage with them and invite them to the Symposium, if possible. However, I think what Sheep, Peter, Vini and Lucas are saying is that no one should try to undermine other (long term and perhaps much more established) efforts in a field by pretending that something has been created from scratch.

As mentioned by others, linking buildings with the spatial network has been one of the major areas of research within the space syntax community, particularly in the past 10-15 years. At Space Syntax Limited, we have been using an integrated spatial model weighted by land use, density, population (and any other factor that you wish to attribute to buildings) for quite some time. The method uses Depthmap as the engine for the analysis, but it is fully integrated with GIS (in our case MapInfo, but it is compatible with ArcGIS or any other GIS platform). We use this type of model in assessing the current conditions, when there is an uneven distribution of buildings and densities, but more importantly, it is used in assessing new urban developments, so not only the changes to the spatial network, but other factors such as land use, density, and so on will be taken into account. What this tool needs is a great-looking interface, which we are going to develop at UCL.

In some cases, such as the impact assessment of Jeddah City Centre development, the analysis has successfully created a very powerful method to define the city centre and how it is impacted by the new developments. The model also seems to become a strong bridge between a spatial model (which links with natural movement, way-finding and perception) and a traffic model (which links with origins and destinations and route capacity). In fact, if done properly, this is a very effective origin-destination analysis, since unlike most transport models it is not based on zone-based origin-destinations, but on the actual journeys from anywhere to anywhere. No need to say that the syntax model can use topological and metric measures (or a combination of both) in the analysis of the network, although we constantly find the former a more efficient measure. I should be able to say more about this at the Symposium.

I also would like to emphasise Lucas' point about the need for an urban theory behind any analytical model. In order to make any use of elaborate urban tools, we really have to see how it links with the way urban space is occupied and used. Space syntax network analysis, is not just 'a' network analysis. It is an analysis that enables us to link abstract network concepts to the real world of people and behaviour, hence enabling us to use it as a design, planning and decision making tool. 

Best

Kayvan

Kayvan Karimi
Senior Lecturer, UCL
Director, Space Syntax

-----Original Message-----
From On Behalf Of Tim Stonor
Sent: 13 September 2011 09:00
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [SPACESYNTAX] SV: MIT reinvent space syntax !

Hi, Lars

I agree. It's exactly what I said to Andres back in March.

;-)

The idea of linking buildings into the graph is of course not new as others have already pointed out. However, if there's a new way of doing it then that's worth looking at. I speak as someone who first looked at this in 1990, when I stacked axial lines up to represent the floors of tall buildings in Manhattan.

Building plot analysis/land use weighting (or whatever we choose to call it) is a big subject and deserving of more than one approach - as well as an acknowledgment of its origins and development.

T
_____________

On 13 Sep 2011, at 08:37, "Lars Marcus" wrote:


Rather than stressing that nothing is new, I think we should see that there are news in that other people and groups are picking up on similar ideas. This is extremely important for our field and just reading this mail exchange, there obviously seems to be one or two new ideas, albeit not a complete theory. I agree with Lucas, we should make sure they come to Chile.



Lars

______________________________________

Lars Marcus

Associate Professor and Senior Lecturer Urban Design KTH School of Architecture
SE-100 44 Stockholm
Sweden


________________________________
Från: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> [[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] för Urban Lists Sust Urb [[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
Skickat: den 13 september 2011 08:48
Till: <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Ämne: Re: MIT reinvent space syntax !

What you are describing here is also the practice of "New Urbanism" another american effort that takes all the good world wide practices in urbanism, and then rebrands them, without proper acknowledgment, and even including people and practices who don't agree with that branding.

This possibly is the new american strategy to assert dominance?

Peter Robinson
Sustainable Urbanism
Newcastle-upon-Tyne

On 13/09/2011, at 16:12 PM, Vinicius Netto wrote:

Lucas, all

I think you've nailed it, pal - what amazes me is how this MIT package is offered apparently without any explicit reference to space syntax and to previous work adding buildings to the street network as part of the urban relational system, from Kruger to (more fully, as attractors with differentiated weights) in Krafta's work. It seems just wrong to me. And smart: offering these ideas in a simple package attached to a popular GIS software is a smart move indeed. That's how careers and reputations are built even if ideas are not properly acknowledged. So we're back to wrong again

Vini Netto

_________________________________________

Universidade Federal Fluminense (UFF)
24030-080 Niterói - Rio de Janeiro



________________________________
From: Lucas Figueiredo <<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
To: <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, 13 September 2011, 1:23
Subject: Re: [SPACESYNTAX] MIT reinvent space syntax !

Networks of components of the built environment actually pre-dates space syntax. Are we forgetting Krugger's work on EPB at the end of the 70s? If so, what about Krafta's in the 90s ("Modelling intraurban configurational development")?

Besides Place Syntax, we analysed 160.000 plots in a network in Mexico City using Mindwalk. Can we do this in ArcGIS?

So nothing new here.

In addition, developing a scientific package inside a commercial toolbox is not a good idea. ArcGIS may be standard in USA but that is not true everywhere else as we have decent open source GIS packages nowadays. ArcGIS might be an entry barrier in several countries.

If they are believers of the ancient astronaut theory in that space syntax does not exist, what are the theoretical foundations of the model? Of course, perhaps we can build models without a theory behind it ...

Finally, I see all of this outdated because it is 2D.

--

Anyway, I would love to see this somewhere, are they coming to Chile?
I should be presenting something related there. Where else people discuss this sort of networked-model for urban morphology? (that is a serious question, where else?)

Best Regards,
Lucas Figueiredo
--
Chefe em Exercício do Departamento de Arquitetura Centro de Tecnologia Universidade Federal da Paraíba

On 12 September 2011 21:50, Batty, Michael wrote:
> I met him in MIT too recently and the toolkit is very much more 
> detailed than space syntax in that as Patrick says, it does not assume 
> that streets are the only networks in town but that buildings and 
> other components of the urban fabric generate relationships! It also 
> builds on network science ideas of primal and duals of various sorts.
> None of this is new. But Andres is one of the first to put it together 
> in a whole package and it works with standard GIS technologies. Well 
> worth looking it in my view and yes it has similarities with place 
> syntax in its focus on more than streets or spaces between buildings.
> You can also get some detail from the Urban Systems Collaborative 
> Dashboard < 
>
> Mike Batty
>
> On 12 Sep 2011, at 23:59, Penn, Alan wrote:
>
> That sounds rather like 'place syntax' from the Stockholm group?
> Alan
> On 12 Sep 2011, at 18:23, Patrick S wrote:
>
> A notable difference is that this toolkit attempts to calculate the 
> various network analysis values for the location of buildings on the 
> network, with the option to apply a weight to each building (based on 
> square footage, for example). To calculate values on only the network, 
> you must choose the network's nodes as the "buildings" input.
> I spoke with Sevtsuk two weeks ago, and he mentioned that he plans to 
> move to the Singapore University of Design and Technology next spring.
> Patrick Sewell
>
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Tim Stonor 
>>
>> Sheep
>>
>> I met Andres a few times last year and yes, he did come to one of my 
>> talks, where I argued for the benefits of open source, open access, 
>> open standards!
>>
>> It's got to be good to have some New Kids on the Block, hasn't it?
>>
>> Tim
>> _____________
>>
>> Tim Stonor
>>
>> Architect & Urban Planner
>> Managing Director, Space Syntax
>>
>> Skype  timstonor
>> Twitter  @Tim_Stonor
>>
>> Blog
>>
>> Space Syntax Limited
>> Registered Office, 30 City Road, London, EC1Y 2AB. Registered in 
>> England No. 2404770 _____________
>>
>> 8th International Space Syntax Symposium Santiago, Chile 3rd-6th 
>> January 2012 << 
>> l>
>>
>> On 12 Sep 2011, at 17:58, "N.S. Dalton"
>> << >> wrote:
>>
>> I found this reinvention of space syntax
>>
>>
>> b.mit.edu/press/2011/urban-network-analysis.html><http://web.mit.edu/
>> press/2011/urban-network-analysis.html> 
>> urban-network-analysis.html
>>
>>  MIT researchers have created a new Urban Network Analysis (UNA) 
>> toolbox that enables urban designers and planners to describe the 
>> spatial patterns of cities using mathematical network analysis 
>> methods. Such tools can support better informed and more resilient 
>> urban design and planning in a context of rapid urbanization.
>> "Network centrality measures are useful predictors for a number of 
>> interesting urban phenomena," explains Andres Sevtsuk, the principal 
>> investigator of the City Form Research 
>> Groupat MIT that 
>> produced the toolbox. "They help explain, for instance, on which 
>> streets or buildings one is most likely to find local commerce, where foot or vehicular traffic is expected to be highest, and why city land values vary from one location to another."
>>
>> or check out the video
>>
>>
>> I've often said that for space syntax to be used in the US it would 
>> have to be rebranded as invented in the US so this is at least 10 years over due.
>>
>> Do you think any of the MIT group went to any of Tim's talks ;-)
>>
>> sheep
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an 
>> exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in 
>> Scotland (SC 038302).
>
>
>
> _______________________________________
> Michael Batty
> Centre for Advanced Spatial Analysis (CASA) University College London
> 90 Tottenham Court Road, London W1N 6TR Tel 44-(0)20 3108 3877 Cell
> 44-(0)7768 423 656