Hi, Lars

I agree. It's exactly what I said to Andres back in March.

;-)

The idea of linking buildings into the graph is of course not new as others have already pointed out. However, if there's a new way of doing it then that's worth looking at. I speak as someone who first looked at this in 1990, when I stacked axial lines up to represent the floors of tall buildings in Manhattan.

Building plot analysis/land use weighting (or whatever we choose to call it) is a big subject and deserving of more than one approach - as well as an acknowledgment of its origins and development.

T
_____________

On 13 Sep 2011, at 08:37, "Lars Marcus" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:


Rather than stressing that nothing is new, I think we should see that there are news in that other people and groups are picking up on similar ideas. This is extremely important for our field and just reading this mail exchange, there obviously seems to be one or two new ideas, albeit not a complete theory. I agree with Lucas, we should make sure they come to Chile.



Lars

______________________________________

Lars Marcus

Associate Professor and Senior Lecturer Urban Design
KTH School of Architecture
SE-100 44 Stockholm
Sweden

e-mail: <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
phone: + 46 (0)8 790 6020
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Från: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> [[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] för Urban Lists Sust Urb [[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
Skickat: den 13 september 2011 08:48
Till: <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Ämne: Re: MIT reinvent space syntax !

What you are describing here is also the practice of "New Urbanism" another american effort that takes all the good world wide practices in urbanism, and then rebrands them, without proper acknowledgment, and even including people and practices who don't agree with that branding.

This possibly is the new american strategy to assert dominance?

Peter Robinson
Sustainable Urbanism
Newcastle-upon-Tyne

On 13/09/2011, at 16:12 PM, Vinicius Netto wrote:

Lucas, all

I think you've nailed it, pal - what amazes me is how this MIT package is offered apparently without any explicit reference to space syntax and to previous work adding buildings to the street network as part of the urban relational system, from Kruger to (more fully, as attractors with differentiated weights) in Krafta's work. It seems just wrong to me. And smart: offering these ideas in a simple package attached to a popular GIS software is a smart move indeed. That's how careers and reputations are built even if ideas are not properly acknowledged. So we're back to wrong again

Vini Netto

_________________________________________

Universidade Federal Fluminense (UFF)
24030-080 Niterói - Rio de Janeiro


Visite www.urbanismo.arq.br<http://www.urbanismo.arq.br/>

________________________________
From: Lucas Figueiredo <<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
To: <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, 13 September 2011, 1:23
Subject: Re: [SPACESYNTAX] MIT reinvent space syntax !

Networks of components of the built environment actually pre-dates
space syntax. Are we forgetting Krugger's work on EPB at the end of
the 70s? If so, what about Krafta's in the 90s ("Modelling intraurban
configurational development")?

Besides Place Syntax, we analysed 160.000 plots in a network in Mexico
City using Mindwalk. Can we do this in ArcGIS?

So nothing new here.

In addition, developing a scientific package inside a commercial
toolbox is not a good idea. ArcGIS may be standard in USA but that is
not true everywhere else as we have decent open source GIS packages
nowadays. ArcGIS might be an entry barrier in several countries.

If they are believers of the ancient astronaut theory in that space
syntax does not exist, what are the theoretical foundations of the
model? Of course, perhaps we can build models without a theory behind
it ...

Finally, I see all of this outdated because it is 2D.

--

Anyway, I would love to see this somewhere, are they coming to Chile?
I should be presenting something related there. Where else people
discuss this sort of networked-model for urban morphology? (that is a
serious question, where else?)

Best Regards,
Lucas Figueiredo
--
Chefe em Exercício do Departamento de Arquitetura
Centro de Tecnologia
Universidade Federal da Paraíba

On 12 September 2011 21:50, Batty, Michael <<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> I met him in MIT too recently and the toolkit is very much more detailed
> than space syntax in that as Patrick says, it does not assume that streets
> are the only networks in town but that buildings and other components of the
> urban fabric generate relationships! It also builds on network science ideas
> of primal and duals of various sorts. None of this is new. But Andres is one
> of the first to put it together in a whole package and it works with
> standard GIS technologies. Well worth looking it in my view and yes it has
> similarities with place syntax in its focus on more than streets or spaces
> between buildings. You can also get some detail from the Urban Systems
> Collaborative Dashboard
> <http://blog.urbansystemscollaborative.org/> http://blog.urbansystemscollaborative.org/
>
> Mike Batty
>
> On 12 Sep 2011, at 23:59, Penn, Alan wrote:
>
> That sounds rather like 'place syntax' from the Stockholm group?
> Alan
> On 12 Sep 2011, at 18:23, Patrick S wrote:
>
> A notable difference is that this toolkit attempts to calculate the various
> network analysis values for the location of buildings on the network, with
> the option to apply a weight to each building (based on square footage, for
> example). To calculate values on only the network, you must choose the
> network's nodes as the "buildings" input.
> I spoke with Sevtsuk two weeks ago, and he mentioned that he plans to move
> to the Singapore University of Design and Technology next spring.
> Patrick Sewell
>
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Tim Stonor <<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> wrote:
>>
>> Sheep
>>
>> I met Andres a few times last year and yes, he did come to one of my
>> talks, where I argued for the benefits of open source, open access, open
>> standards!
>>
>> It's got to be good to have some New Kids on the Block, hasn't it?
>>
>> Tim
>> _____________
>>
>> Tim Stonor
>>
>> Architect & Urban Planner
>> Managing Director, Space Syntax
>>
>> Skype  timstonor
>> Twitter  @Tim_Stonor
>>
>> Blog  <<http://www.timstonor.wordpress.com>http://www.timstonor.wordpress.com>
>> <http://www.timstonor.wordpress.com> www.timstonor.wordpress.com<http://www.timstonor.wordpress.com><<http://www.timstonor.wordpress.com>http://www.timstonor.wordpress.com>
>> LinkedIn  <<http://www.linkedin.com/in/timstonor>http://www.linkedin.com/in/timstonor>
>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/timstonor> http://www.linkedin.com/in/timstonor
>>
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>> <http://www.spacesyntax.com> www.spacesyntax.com<http://www.spacesyntax.com><<http://www.spacesyntax.com>http://www.spacesyntax.com>
>>
>> Space Syntax Limited
>> Registered Office, 30 City Road, London, EC1Y 2AB. Registered in England
>> No. 2404770
>> _____________
>>
>> 8th International Space Syntax Symposium
>> Santiago, Chile 3rd-6th January 2012 <<http://www.sss8.cl>http://www.sss8.cl>
>> <http://www.sss8.cl> www.sss8.cl<http://www.sss8.cl><<http://www.sss8.cl>http://www.sss8.cl>
>>
>> On 12 Sep 2011, at 17:58, "N.S. Dalton"
>> <<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
>>
>> I found this reinvention of space syntax
>>
>>
>> <<http://web.mit.edu/press/2011/urban-network-analysis.html>http://web.mit.edu/press/2011/urban-network-analysis.html><http://web.mit.edu/press/2011/urban-network-analysis.html>http://web.mit.edu/press/2011/urban-network-analysis.html
>>
>>  MIT researchers have created a new Urban Network Analysis (UNA) toolbox
>> that enables urban designers and planners to describe the spatial patterns
>> of cities using mathematical network analysis methods. Such tools can
>> support better informed and more resilient urban design and planning in a
>> context of rapid urbanization. “Network centrality measures are useful
>> predictors for a number of interesting urban phenomena,” explains Andres
>> Sevtsuk, the principal investigator of the City Form Research
>> Group<<http://cityform.mit.edu/>http://cityform.mit.edu/> at MIT that produced the toolbox. “They help
>> explain, for instance, on which streets or buildings one is most likely to
>> find local commerce, where foot or vehicular traffic is expected to be
>> highest, and why city land values vary from one location to another.”
>>
>> or check out the video
>>
>> <<http://youtu.be/X3XTNRRfKw4>http://youtu.be/X3XTNRRfKw4><http://youtu.be/X3XTNRRfKw4>http://youtu.be/X3XTNRRfKw4
>>
>> I've often said that for space syntax to be used in the US it would have
>> to be rebranded as invented in the US so this is at least 10 years over due.
>>
>> Do you think any of the MIT group went to any of Tim's talks ;-)
>>
>> sheep
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an
>> exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC
>> 038302).
>
>
>
> _______________________________________
> Michael Batty
> Centre for Advanced Spatial Analysis (CASA)
> University College London
> 90 Tottenham Court Road, London W1N 6TR
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