Hi Mogg,

I think it is tricky, as you say.  Like so much else, arguments of nationalism, regionalism and belonging are a matter of context.  They are appropriate to some degree in certain contexts, and utterly inappropriate and problematic in others.  Of course there is room for feelings of ethnic, regional and national pride, and even for independence movements as one sees in Scotland, Wales, and Sardinia (to name just a few) -- although in at least two of these cases, the economic and political realities make it unlikely.  But it's a fine line between those feelings and yearnings, and arguments that become problematic because they equate cultural identity with genetics and/or indigeneity to a specific location.

I think those of us who study anthropology need to continue to remind folks that culture is *learned* rather than inherited, and suggesting otherwise puts one on a slippery slope towards racialism.  Thus, Cardiff's black community has by now as much of a claim to being culturally Welsh as other Welsh folks.  Those of us who migrated to another culture early in life may lay claim to two (or more) cultural heritages: I am just as much an American as I am an Italian.

As for indigeneity, it's even more problematic.  The fact is that while everyobody came from somewhere originally, there has always been a great deal more movement of people throughout the globe than was previously thought; anything beyond "Humans are indigenous to Africa" becomes a purely political statement.  This term is now used by peoples who were subjected to colonialism, and has a very specific meaning.  When Euro-Americans claim to be indigenous people or to practice indigenous religions, it strikes me as a classic case of white privilege using the language of the minority to empower itself -- kind of like the U.S. Christian right claiming that they are a minority religion -- distasteful as well as patently false.  As Pagans, and thus members of an actual minoroty religion, we find it offensive to hear such arguments -- yet many of us think nothing of making claims that are heard by First Nations people as equally distasteful and untrue.

I tend to agree with Roger Griffin (and with "Dune" author Frank Herbert) that when religion and politics ride in the same cart, nothing good can come  of it.  That doesn't mean that we shouldn't let our ethical and religious principles guide us in the voting booth -- just that combining the two into a politico-religious movement leads inevitably to a hot mess, because it challenges the idea of a secular, non-sectarian state.  See the work of Mark Jurgensmeyer on this question in a variety of national, religious and political dimensions.

Best,
Sabina

Sabina Magliocco
Professor
Department of Anthropology
California State University - Northridge
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of mandrake [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 10:49 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Fw: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] CFP: Extremism, Nationalism and Transgression

On 16/08/2011 18:13, Magliocco, Sabina wrote:

Sabina

Tricky - is there no sort of indigenous discourse that avoids these
pitfalls?
I'm familiar with the argument but wonder whether there is some room for
some sort of cultural -
or political nationalism ? as is sometimes posed for Wales (where I
indiginate: )
- rather than the full blown "ethnic" nationalism of the kind so
destructive in former Yugoslavia?
As you know, Scottish independence is a real possibility here although
so far that is fairly inclusive programme.

In Wales you do see (very occasionally) more of the nasty ethnic stuff,
especially in the north - with some hatred of cosmopolitan south and
Cardiff -
Cardiff has one of the oldest black communities in UK (think of Shirley
Bassi) -
but this is an issue for some ultra nationalists.

This isn't "political religion" of sort we are maybe thinking about viz
paganism - not yet.
Wales and Scotland are of course reknowned as heartlands of the
traditional left -
and there has always been a tension between socialist and nationalist
agendas.

The theorist Roger Griffin seems to think no good can come of political
religion of any kind - do you think that is true?
Pagans do sometimes say that their religion has an implied political
agenda - more usually allied to the green party?

senebty

Mogg





> Arguments based on "blood and soil" and indigeneity are increasingly prevalent even among Pagans who do not think of themselves as racist or nationalist.  It's a disturbing trend.  Many are well-meaning people who are interested in reconstructionism or in reconnecting with ancestral traditions, but are unaware of the logical implications of their arguments.
>
> I think we need to speak out as a community against this kind of discourse.  Because so much of modern Paganism is informed by academic research, those of us who engage in such work could educate people about the problems with these arguments -- as Mogg said, to "engage and change minds."
>
> Of course, die-hard racists and fascists will remain unmoved by our arguments -- but these are in the minority, and always have been.
>
> Best,
> Sabina
>
> Sabina Magliocco
> Professor
> Department of Anthropology
> California State University - Northridge
> [log in to unmask]
> ________________________________________
> From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of mandrake [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 1:54 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Fw: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] CFP: Extremism, Nationalism and Transgression
>
> Dear Samuel Wagar
>
> Political religion
>
> It's good to see that there are people on the list plugged into the issues without overblowing it too much.
> It is something I've raised  before and the pagan movement is aware of the issues and is engaging and where necessary has excluded neo-fascists -
> and as is said, on facebook there have been a few posts from people not wanting to have NR folk amongst their friends.
>
> Whilst I sympathise, I do also think there are some instances where one might let someone in on spec in order to engage and hopefully change minds -
> some are beyond that but others are just confused. I've been involved with a new network called "The Companions of Seth" which specifically is
> non heirarchical,not racist, not into petty power games ..creative, adventurous open minded etc
> previous Setian groups have been v ambiguous on these issues and COS does seem to include some "survivors" -
> its tricky because previous setians have some excellent work, especially liturgy - and we have mutual respect - although we Companions have a different way of seeing the mythos and want to
> move the current away fromthe  New Right to what we see as its more natural home in the Liberatarian socialist domain.
>
> We are currently "clothing" our tradition and formulating a mission statement.
> I may be able to submit something to the proposed anthology as mentioned in an earlier post by (?)
>
> Senebty
>
> Mogg Morgan
>
> wrote:
>>   current neofascist attempts to infiltrate occult circles.
> They've always been here. At least in North America the Odinist movement and Asatru is crawling with them. The first organizer of Northern Traditions in N.A., Helen Christensen, is a fascist. She's now retired and living on Vancouver Island, an elderly woman not active in the movement anymore. The book "Gods of the Blood : the Pagan Revival and White Separatism" by Mattias Gardell (Durham NC: Duke U Press,2003) is a very good history of the movement. Gardell teaches at Stockholm University in Sweden.
>
> Did anyone else notice the similarities between Brievik's ideology and the ideas of the Legion of the Archangel Michael / Iron Guard, the Roumanian fascist group that Mircea Eliade was involved with in the 1930s and sympathetic to throughout his life? Particularly the idea of martyrdom through committing a detestable act - like Judas condemning oneself to Hell for the sake of the "greater goal of liberation of Christendom"?
>
> Best,
>
> Sam Wagar
>
>