I was intrigued by Tim Allen's reference to the Black Mass. Does he mean
the classic C19 Parisian Black Mass, as evoked by Huysmans, Summers et al,
complete with virgin, or he is a closet Thelemite, attending the Gnostic
Mass devised by the Master Therion 666, which is not really black at all,
more a deep shade of purple. And then there's the Mass of Chaos, devised by
the Initiates of Thanateros...
You don't really need a Mass, as such, to inter-act astrally with Mr
Lumsden. An Invocation to Bartzabel should do the trick.
Frater P
On 6/7/11 12:31, "David Lace" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> I'm amazed at how Lumsden got that job, too. Chris must have been going
> through a mid-life crisis or something when he appointed him. To think that
> Lumsden has the responsibility of vetting any avant-garde poetry submissions
> from those poets still anxious to be associated with Salt is almost parodic.
> Chris must have a sense of humour after all.
>
>
>
>
> On 6 Jul 2011, at 11:33, Tim Allen wrote:
>
> Yes well, thanks for reminding us of this David. Anyway I have always
> reserved my opinion of Lumsdon for when I attend black mass. I'd
> forgotten the 'bristly old guard bit' - and yes I have been bristly
> since I was 20.
>
> The main trouble with what he says, as befits a polemicist, is to
> conflate two different things - the slow death of the listservs and
> his very low opinion of the avant garde.
>
> He was right about the problems caused when Mallin and Byrne became
> the moderators - Rupert Mallin was not really interested in innovative
> poetry, old or new, and Mairead Byrne, although she had enthusiasms
> for what was happening in the States (where she had moved to) had very
> little knowledge about the British scene, and didn't seem to
> understand what any of us were talking about. Add to this the fact
> that both of them were highly opinionated people (not 'hands off'
> moderators in other words) the result was friction and frustration for
> all concerned.
>
> I still post here when something comes up that catches my attention -
> most of the time the list is very quiet, which suits me, because then
> I get some work done. I haven't moved on to the blogs etc yet, I just
> haven't bothered and I might never bother. Part of the problem there
> is that there are so many of them - therefore they don't provide the
> same kind of focus as the listservs did. If this list closed down then
> I would probably bit by bit begin to use the blogs.
>
> A question to anyone out there - do any of you know how and why
> Lumsdon became poetry editor at Salt? One of the most vocal critics of
> the innovative scene becomes the editor of what a few years back was
> the main vehicle for that scene - a coincidence?????
>
> Cheers
>
> Tim A.
>
> On 5 Jul 2011, at 21:37, David Lace wrote:
>
>> Sorry, but I just can't resist posting this here:
>>
>>
>> "[...] As for wider comments about BritPo and the listservs, I have
>> some to make...
>>
>> The email based listservs have now had their day. I think any
>> connection between the booming health of UKLIP and the crapulous
>> BritPo is unproductive though. Even forums like this one will
>> probably be dead in another five-ten years and I don't want to take
>> anything away from the important, exciting business of connecting
>> disparate minds which was done by poetryetc, britpo, wompo and the
>> rest. But it's time to knock some of those old forums on the head -
>> they have mainly become ad sites and, in the case of petc, just
>> another terrible-poem-post site.
>>
>> As to Britpo specifically, it has been a soap opera with a dwindling
>> audience for years. The reasons for this are complex and would take
>> long explanations which would be as tedious as trying to explain
>> Hollyoaks to someone who hasn't seen it since '02. A few reasons are
>> obvious though...
>>
>> - as I've said before, though set up as a discussion forum for poets
>> writing outside of the mainstream, all too often it has been a crap-
>> shoot for puppies humping the ankles of the mainstream, and that has
>> never been stamped on as much as it should have been - it has put a
>> lot of LIP poets off joining and being tarred with that stick
>>
>> - none of the younger innovative poets want anything to do with
>> britpo - and its whiff of jazz, elbow patches, fag-smoke and 70s
>> politics - it's like walking in on your old folks doing it!
>>
>> - the major reason for its demise is the demise of the list-serv,
>> but second was the change of moderators to Byrne and Rupert Mallin
>> some time back - perfectly credible choices in some ways, but, well,
>> not exactly 'innovative' poets, given the list's focus. Mallin had
>> also, near to the changeover, made some disparaging comments about
>> the state of UK/I innovative poetry - the last straw for many of the
>> bristly old guard like Upton, Allen and Riley.
>>
>> - most of the posters who plaster their ads and poems over the site
>> clearly never read the rest and don't contribute to the community -
>> this sleazy practice ought to have a name really - I'm sure it does!
>>
>> - most of the posters left there have never even heard of most of
>> the fabulous newer poets writing innovative poetry in the US, UK and
>> elsewhere (and this will be splendidly proved by a clear lack of
>> response to Chris' new post there asking about what is going on now
>> - expect tumbleweeds). And most of them, oddly, are not even
>> innovative poets but old bores of the self-appointed maverick
>> tendency!
>>
>> Time to put it quietly to sleep I think, as happened with
>> Crossroads, which had more credibility and distinctly more viewers."
>>
>>
>> http://z11.invisionfree.com/Poets_On_Fire/index.php?showtopic=627
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