medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Dear Maddy,
You are probably already aware of Malcolm Thurlby, Romanesque
Architecture and Sculpture in Wales (Little Logaston: Logaston Press,
2006). I have not actually read it, but I could put you in touch with
the author if you like.
Cheers,
Jim
On 08/04/2011 1:50 PM, Christopher Crockett wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> From: Madeleine Gray<[log in to unmask]>
>
>> As ever you are a mine of information, Chris.
> hi Maddy,
>
> yes, well the thing to remember about mine fields of information is that they
> can blow up in your face, leaving you more ignerint than when you started.
>
>> What we have here ... in a little country far, far away
> i skipped right over the "cetology" chapters in Moby Dick, so the only thing i
> know about Whales is what i have read on this list, in the last few years.
>
>> is (a) a political struggle between local rulers and invaders (the Normans)
> to associate themselves with Cistercian foundations
>
> yes, and quite "late" (by my standards) Cistercian foundations as well
> --nothing much before 1200, is there?
>
> by 1200, imHo, the Order was quite Over-the-Hill and Fat, having given up the
> Ideals of the Founders in return for ripping off land by moving boundary
> stones (i.e., Walter Map was *right*) and building quite beautiful buildings
> in that new-fangled "Gothic" style which would have Scandalized St. Bernie
> something awful.
>
> in any event, the combination of 13th c. Cistercian and Lay politics sounds
> like a quite Toxic Mix, to me --makes sorting out what was going on in France
> in the 1140s look like... i donno, Pre-2000 U.S. politics.
>
> but, Foundations is Foundations, and many (most?) of the essential elements
> remained constant, through the centuries.
>
> there's been quite a bit of work on the historical aspects of the Early
> Cistercian foundations lately --a field Up with Which i have Scrupulously Not
> Kept.
>
> they seem to have made quite a Thing out of founding abbeys in places which
> found themselves on the "border" --right on the borders of ecclesiastical or
> lay governmental units.
>
> were really, really In To playing one Authority off against another,
> apparently.
>
> at least, the Early Guys were.
>
> and, Old Habits die Hard.
>
> (do read Walter Map on their Act.)
>
>> and (b) some elaborate tombs, usually without inscriptions and therefore
> unattributable and undatable, which are assumed to be those of founders. (Also
> some rather later tombs which can be identified as founders' kin.)
>
> by inscriptions, presumably.
>
>> Ascribing dates to the tomb carvings on the basis of typology, style of
> decoration etc, is difficult because Wales has idiosyncratic styles,
>
> *that's* rather charitably put.
>
>> and within Wales there are also clear local differences. However, if I can
> get clearer dates for some of the slabs on Cistercian sites I may be able to
> work out from those. Colin Gresham did a lot of the work for north Wales back
> in the 1960s but doubt has been cast since on a lot of his datings and they
> may not work for south Wales anyway.
>
>
> yes, well i wish you the Very Best, trying to sort all that mess out, Maddy.
>
> using "style" to date things is difficult enough in a relatively coherent
> place like 12th c. France --trying to sort out stuff like this
>
> http://www.castlewales.com/valle_crucis07.jpg
>
> in Marginal regions on the very Fringe of Civilization As We Know It would be
> enough to drive one to Methodological Considerations of the sort which might
> lead to recurrent Headaches.
>
> might as well try Carbon-14 dating on those stones as attempt any sort of
> "stylistic analysis" --although, "typology" sounds like something a bit
> different and, potentially, more promising.
>
> you might have a look at George Kubler's little book, _The Shape of Time:
> Reflections on the History of Things_, which deals somewhat with trying to do
> the impossible with undated and (essentially) undatable sequences of Objects
> (his field was Pre-Columbian, and many of his paradigms come from such things
> as Pre-Inca pottery, which, now that i think on it, looks a lot like your
> tombstones there).
>
> c
>
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