medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Gordon's source
Gertrud Schiller, Iconography of Christian art. Translated by Janet Seligman.
[1st American ed.]
Greenwich, Conn., New York Graphic Society, 1971- [v. 2, 1972]
is a translation of
Gertrud Schiller, Ikonographie der christlichen Kunst.
1. Aufl.
Gütersloh: Gütersloher Verlagshaus G. Mohn, 1966- [v. 2, 1968]
footnote 25 on p. 111 of the latter reads:
"Das ursprüngliche Apsismosaik in S. Clemente … ist 1126-8 von der
Unterkirche in die obere Kirche übertragen und dabei weitgehend restauriert
und verändert worden."
so the translation
"...was ... transferred from the crypt in the upper church in 1126-8 and it
was extensively restored and altered."
would seem to be quite correct.
whether or not "übertragen" can also mean "translated" (as in the translation
of a precious relic) is quite beyond my kennen.
"translated" (in the technical sense) would correspond to the venerative
consciousness which Jim mis-characterized as "symbolical."
be that as it may, whether the statement is actually *true* or not --that the
old mosaic was *physically moved* from the crypt to the upper church-- well,
it still strikes me as witness to an astonishing feat, if true.
but, we *have* the mosaic in question (do we not?), and it does, indeed, date
from many centuries before (does it not?) the part of the building in which it
now hangs.
if a mosaic can be said to "hang".
but, what else would a mosiac do?
sit?
that doesn't seem right, somehow.
in any event, this is the mosaic we're talking about
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/56/143314293_dd5538e4d8.jpg
with this central bit
http://romeofthewest.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/apsis_mosaic_san_clemente_n2.jpg?w=264&h=400
added in the 12th c., when the rest was "transferred."
given the precise date given for the translation (1126-8), there must be a
written source?
c
------ Original Message ------
Received: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 10:52:14 AM EDT
From: Christopher Crockett <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] S. Clemente mosaic: the birds
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> From: Dr Jim Bugslag <[log in to unmask]>
>
> > Well, Christopher, tricky or not, modern restorers can move mosaics
around
> quite effectively.
>
>
> yes, presumably using (more or less) the technique outlined by Brother
Briggs
> earlier.
>
> the capabilities of "modern restorers" is not the issue.
>
> the issue is the capabilities of 12th c. actors.
>
> >Whether that might have been practicable in the 12th century is another
> matter.
>
> mmmm... perhaps that's (more or less) what i meant when i axed, "was the
> actual *mosaic* itself 'transferred' in the 12th c.?"
>
> >I really don't know what the situation might have been, but I tend to
suspect
> that Schiller was referring to the iconography rather than the actual
> tesserae.
>
>
> which has nothing whatsoever to do with the question i posed --iconographic
> "transference" is a Piece of Cake, whether in the same medium or across
> multiple media.
>
> to "transfer" an actual, physical object made up of thousands of tiny
pieces,
> each of which must be replaced precisely in its proper place --that's more
of
> a Mud Pie.
>
> at least, if you want to dine on it with your eyes later.
>
> were the Medievals capable of such metaphor mixing?
>
> i suspect that the problem here is with the translation of whatever was
> written in German into "the mosaic was transferred" --which, in English,
> certainly means something like "physically moved." *not* "copied."
>
> >The only 'pre-modern' mosaics I know of that were moved about were
miniature
> mosaic icons,
>
> somehow, i don't think that that is *quite* the same thing...
>
> >but I would not rule out the moving of large-scale mosaics,
>
> well, until i come across a *spec* of evidence that might suggest that a
> large-scale mosaic was "transferred" (in the English sense of the word) in
the
> early 12th c., i believe that i would, de facto, rule such an outlandish
idea
> "out."
>
> >most probably for symbolic
>
> "symbolic"?
>
> what on earth do you mean?
>
> >reasons -- sort of like "belles verrieres" in stained glass.
>
> again, off-topic.
>
> i have no doubt that the 12th c. guys would have loved to "transfer" the
> venerable mosaic to new quarters.
>
> the issue is not one of Desire, but of Capability.
>
> > Come to think of it, parts of the apse mosaic of St Peter's Basilica (Old
St
> Peters) were saved when it was demolished in the 16th century.
>
> that's interesting, and quite a bit Closer to the Mark.
>
> let me be sure i understand: parts of the (4th c.?) mosaic were *physically
> transferred* (to where?) in the 16th c.?
>
> just to clarify, if such was the case, the reason for the "salvation" was
not
> "symbolism," but rather "Veneration."
>
> turns out that i have ready access to both the English and (original)
German
> eds. of Schiller, so i can check what German word is translated as
> "transferred."
>
> back ina bit.
>
> c
>
> > On 20/04/2011 1:10 PM, Christopher Crockett wrote:
> > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
culture
> > >
> > > From: Revd Gordon Plumb<[log in to unmask]>
> > >
> > >> Gertrud Schiller, Iconography of Christian Art p.100 has the following
> > > footnote:
> > >
> > >> The original apse mosaic dating from the end of the 4th century in S.
> Clemente in Rome was transferred from the lower to the upper church in
1126-8
> and was much restored and altered in the process.
>
> > > Jim, is this true (not that i don't believe you, Gordon, but i don't
know
> Schiller at all) --was the actual *mosaic* itself "transferred" in the 12th
> c.?
>
> > > if so, do you know of any other [pre-modren] examples of a *mosaic*
being
> > > moved from one place to another??
> > >
> > > a quite tricky thing to do, i should think.
> > >
> > > c
>
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