Lucy--
I don't agree that narrative is predicated on change, it may entail change, but only as the resolution of the motivating conflict. The change in light as the dawning sun emerges above the horizon and rises to reveal differences in a setting is a constant process of change, but this is not narrative. An account of my passing hours from the time that I arise, through the various tasks of my daily routine, to my return home involves a wide array of change, but only if I my experience finds me in conflict with myself, my environment, or other people do I have a story to tell.
--LH
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From: Film-Philosophy [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Lucy Fraser [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 4:44 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [FILM-PHILOSOPHY] FILM-PHILOSOPHY Digest - 21 Mar 2011 to 22 Mar 2011 - Special issue (#2011-43)
This is becoming a semantic argument. Change not conflict is the requisite of narrative. What constitutes visual beauty is predicated on value judgement, that is not fixed, and subject to change. A more universal determinant of beauty is precision, perhaps nice in a context of the word that predates its more common meaning as 'pleasant', but nice as in precise, exact. Mathematics is thus beautiful, as are physics and astronomy in their precision, (cf. Brian Cox's recent television series) and this beauty is embedded in change.
I could go on .... but life is short ....!
--- On Tue, 22/3/11, FILM-PHILOSOPHY automatic digest system <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: FILM-PHILOSOPHY automatic digest system <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: FILM-PHILOSOPHY Digest - 21 Mar 2011 to 22 Mar 2011 - Special issue (#2011-43)
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tuesday, 22 March, 2011, 17:14
There are 2 messages totaling 921 lines in this issue.
Topics in this special issue:
1. FILM-PHILOSOPHY beauty
2. FW: Win an iPad! The Big Picture Presents The Big Competition
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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 12:54:19 -0400
From: "Frank, Michael" <[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>>
Subject: Re: FILM-PHILOSOPHY beauty
each new post - almost each new post - complicates the matter in intriguing ways
catalin writes "Images and sounds can express beauty within a narrative context" and i wonder if there's a difference between "expressing beauty" and "being beautiful" . . . . my sense is that there must be, but i'm not sure how to pursue that difference
in any case, i obviously have to look at elsaesser's book
mike
From: Film-Philosophy [mailto:[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Catalin Brylla
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 10:29 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [FILM-PHILOSOPHY] FILM-PHILOSOPHY beauty
I missed most of the thread, so sorry if I repeat any ideas.
I think beauty can be based on meaning, hence it can be attributed to narrative, too. Images and sounds can express beauty within a narrative context. For instance, the "stone scene" at the end of Okurbito (Departures). A CU of the main character holding the stone out of context would have little impact, but within the narrative (the stone representing lost fatherhood) the "moment" itself becomes beautiful. Maybe we can define beautiful moments through a combination of narrative context and pure visual aesthetics. On the other hand, the beginning sequence (death ritual) is beautiful without narrative context.
Thomas Elsaesser's "Film Theory: An Introduction through the Senses" offers great insight at how "beauty" (though he doesn't use the word itself) can be phenomenologically linked to our senses. The chapter on "skin" (using Marks' and Sobchack's texts) is particularly revealing.
Catalin
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From: Lawrence Howe <[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>>
To: [log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sun, March 20, 2011 10:11:41 PM
Subject: Re: [FILM-PHILOSOPHY] FILM-PHILOSOPHY beauty
Because narrative is so often driven by conflict, I don't think it fits into the category of the beautiful. Narrative may have balanced proportion and symmetry in its inversions of expectations, and these compositional qualities are often associated with beauty. But conflict is not consistent with beauty. Further when we consider that narrative conflict also entails irony, either in its construction or its resolution, it seems more appropriate to think about narrative as either just or unjust, rather than beautiful or not beautiful.
The beautiful components mentioned in Malick's films are often lyrical digressions from narrative or aspects of setting that heighten the conflict, such as the lush tropical beauty of a rather grotesqueness central to the war narrative. Even when characters in a narrative embody beauty it is often as a counterpoint to some attribute--greed, pride (pick your deadly sin)-- that conflicts with beauty, or some other character whose role conflicts with the beautiful character.
--Larry
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From: Film-Philosophy [[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>>] On Behalf Of Ross Macleay [[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>>]
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 4:48 PM
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Subject: Re: [FILM-PHILOSOPHY] FILM-PHILOSOPHY beauty
Strange to say I think narrative van be beautiful - (but its lots of
other things too, reminding us that beauty is certainly not everything
in art.)
In Malick's case I think 'Days of Heaven' is a beautiful narrative. We
often hear that Malick is weak on narrative, all visual beauty and all
'objective correlatives', but I say anything but in the case of Days of
Heaven. It's beautiful in the way of an organism - an Aristotelean idea
about poetics for a film that is Aristotelian in the structure - a
perfect tragedy.
Maybe it's because beauty is such an abstract concept that so many
things can be beautiful. No.
Modern music may have striven to break out of the confines of beauty -
at least it seems that way - but it nearly always it ends up enlarging
what beauty is. Beauty is something we find in the work or art or nature
that is the correlative of our own capacity to appreciate its design?
Ross
On 21/03/2011 8:24 AM, Frank, Michael wrote:
> this seems spot on about malick . . . but it makes me wonder: can a narrative itself [in and of itself] ever be "beautiful"? . . . or does the concept "beauty" [as we normally use it] apply only to images and sounds but not to meanings? . . . i say meanings rather than words because there are some lines of poetry [and sam johnson's prose] that strike me as beautiful - and my gues is that many of us have similar responses . . . but can a NARRATIVE be beautiful??
>
> just wondering
>
> m
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Film-Philosophy [mailto:[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>>] On Behalf Of Shaw, Dan
> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 5:11 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>>
> Subject: Re: [FILM-PHILOSOPHY] FILM-PHILOSOPHY beauty
>
> Terence Malick has often been faulted for being too beautiful for his narrative subject matter...whether it be the sublime beauty of the bleak contryside in Badlands or the lush tropical jungle of Thin Red Line.
>
> I do find some passages of his films mesmerizing...but at those times the narrative grinds to a halt (or at least loses my attention)...except in Thin Red Line, where the scenery becomes the perfect objective correlative of Witt's profound reflections, which are of the essence of the narrative.
>
>
> Professor Daniel Shaw
> Chair, Philosophy Department
> Lock Haven University (570) 484-2052
> Managing Editor, Film and Philosophy
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> to hope, to love---and to put trust in life"
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Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 13:03:59 -0400
From: James Campbell <[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>>
Subject: FW: Win an iPad! The Big Picture Presents The Big Competition
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