medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
It's been a while since I've looked into this, and there may well be
more recent research on it, but it is my understanding that the origins
of an actual chapter house as a physical structure were part of the
Carolingian monastic reforms (see, for example, the St Gall plan of
c.820). I don't believe there is any archaeological evidence for
chapter houses before that. As to when they began to appear in England,
it may well have been later, but by about the 11th or 12th century,
virtually every monastery in Europe may have been expected to have a
chapter house. It is my impression that the arrangements for cathedral
chapters were less regular but would happily stand corrected. As to
burials in chapter houses, that depends a lot on an order's attitude
towards burials. The Cistercians, I believe, initially forbade burials
in their churches but relented in a big way from the 13th century
onwards -- a particularly good example is Santes Creus in Spain, where
the church, cloister and chapter house are filled with burials. As far
as Carthusian monasteries go, at least from the 14th century, they were
often founded as dynastic burial places, most famously perhaps the
Chartreuse de Champmol at Dijon by Philip the Bold, the duke of
Burgundy. The Franciscans and Dominicans encouraged burials, and in
these houses it is clear that the chapter house was second in prestige
as a burial place to the church itself.
Once again in terms of Carthusian houses, if they are distinctive in
having an altar in the chapter house, perhaps that is because their
churches, such as I understand the situation, were not as amenable as
other types of church to the proliferation of chapels.
Cheers,
Jim
On 04/02/2011 1:39 PM, John Briggs wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> On 04/02/2011 19:19, Christopher Crockett wrote:
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>> culture
>>
>> From: John Briggs<[log in to unmask]>
>>
>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>> culture
>> Regards,
>>
>> Regards, yourself.
>
> Sorry, that was supposed to be snipped...
>
>>> On 04/02/2011 17:42, Christopher Crockett wrote:
>>
>>>> come to think of it, i can't think of ever having seen any early
>>>> written
>> evidences of "chapter houses" in any sort of source --save for a
>> considerable
>> number of charters, which are said to have been issued "in capitulum"
>> (which
>> i don't take to mean exactly the same thing).
>>>
>>> Why not? The chapter house would have been the most convenient
>>> available
>> room.
>>
>> assuming that there was such an one.
>
> I'm sure we've got C11 and early C12 examples in England. Boxgrove
> Priory was Benedictine.
>
>> all i intended there was that "in capitulum" (as i dimly understand
>> the term)
>> means something much closer to "in [the meeting of the] chapter"
>> --which,
>> theoretically, could have occurred anywhere.
>>
>> yes, presumably a "room" off the cloister is what is, apparently,
>> meant by the
>> them "chapter house" in modren parlance (i can't think of any separate
>> *buildings* which "housed" the chapter meetings in French Benedictine
>> practice), but "in capitulum" could have taken place in such a room or
>> anywhere else (in the church itself?) which happened to be be
>> convenient or
>> appropriate to the circumstances of the business at hand of the
>> meeting in
>> question.
>>
>>> But the Sarum "Missa in capitulo" *wasn't* celebrated in the chapter
>>> house -
>> it seems to have been celebrated in the presence of the entire
>> chapter, either
>> before or after the chpter meeting.
>>
>> this term i do not know --don't think i've ever encountered it in my
>> charter
>> work.
>>
>> in any event, the cathedral of Sarum, with its associated Benedictine
>> monks,
>> is hardly relevant to the French (or Italian, Ste Croce) Benedictine
>> practice,
>> which is what i assume Jim intended to refer to when he wrote
>> "Burials of at
>> least abbots were quite common in monastic chapter houses."
>
> Salisbury cathedral was, of course, secular - I just gave this example
> to support *your* interpretation of the phrase.
>
> I don't think Jim was restricting himself to particular countries - or
> particular Orders.
>
>>>> did the Cistercians plant their Main Guys in the chapter "house"?
>>>> i've seen a few drawerings of tombs in the walls of choirs (there
>>>> are the
>>>> quite nice sculpted [architectural] remains of at least one
>>>> pre-1150 example
>>>> at Pontigny --Hugh of Macon, i believe), but in chapter houses?
>>>
>>> Burial in a chapter house was, I believe, quite normal in an English
>> monastic context.
>>
>> yeahbut, the "English monastic context" was not entirely "normal,"
>> was it?
>> esp. if you include that curious, kinky institution of "monastic"
>> cathedral
>> chapters.
>
> Actually, I wasn't including cathedrals - I think Priors were quite
> keen to be buried in "their" cathedral, for ome reason...
>
>>> But only the Carthusians seem to have had altars in
>>> their chapter houses.
>
> I was still talking about England (for the "only" bit - Carthusians
> had altars in chapter houses elsewhere, obviously.)
>
>> now that i think about it --and i'd have to look at my charters again
>> to be
>> sure-- there were perhaps quite a few [Benedictine] charters
>> (11th-12th c.)
>> which mention a "gift" (usually a knife, _cutellum_ or a "baton"
>> _baculum_)
>> being placed "super altar[e?]" as a symbol for the gift [usually of
>> property]
>> which is being "memorialized" in the text of the charter.
>>
>> as i understand it, the gift (of property) was made verbally before the
>> chapter and other witnesses (ex botha partes) --usually "in
>> capitulum"-- and
>> was "memorialized" in the charter written for that specific purpose, and
>> solemnized by the symbolic offering which was placed "on the altar."
>>
>> ergo, there was an altar in the place where the chapter was meeting ("in
>> capitulum") --wherever the hell that might have been.
>>
>> ergo sum, the meeting either took place in [a chapel of] the church,
>> or there
>> was an altar in the "chapter house[/room]" --or the meeting was held
>> before or
>> after the ceremony of "gift giving" occurred (in the church, "super
>> altare
>> Sancti Petri," or wherever), and the record was made (and read out?)
>> in the
>> chapter meeting (later)?
>>
>> i never paid much attention to the tenses of the verbs used in the
>> text, which
>> might make this sequence of events somewhat clearer.
>
> I'm not quite sure what you are arguing - are you using your evidence
> for or against altars, or for or against chapter houses?
>
> John Briggs
>
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