medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: John Briggs <[log in to unmask]>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Regards,
Regards, yourself.
> On 04/02/2011 17:42, Christopher Crockett wrote:
>> come to think of it, i can't think of ever having seen any early written
evidences of "chapter houses" in any sort of source --save for a considerable
number of charters, which are said to have been issued "in capitulum" (which
i
don't take to mean exactly the same thing).
> Why not? The chapter house would have been the most convenient available
room.
assuming that there was such an one.
all i intended there was that "in capitulum" (as i dimly understand the term)
means something much closer to "in [the meeting of the] chapter" --which,
theoretically, could have occurred anywhere.
yes, presumably a "room" off the cloister is what is, apparently, meant by the
them "chapter house" in modren parlance (i can't think of any separate
*buildings* which "housed" the chapter meetings in French Benedictine
practice), but "in capitulum" could have taken place in such a room or
anywhere else (in the church itself?) which happened to be be convenient or
appropriate to the circumstances of the business at hand of the meeting in
question.
> But the Sarum "Missa in capitulo" *wasn't* celebrated in the chapter house -
it seems to have been celebrated in the presence of the entire chapter, either
before or after the chpter meeting.
this term i do not know --don't think i've ever encountered it in my charter
work.
in any event, the cathedral of Sarum, with its associated Benedictine monks,
is hardly relevant to the French (or Italian, Ste Croce) Benedictine practice,
which is what i assume Jim intended to refer to when he wrote "Burials of at
least abbots were quite common in monastic chapter houses."
>> did the Cistercians plant their Main Guys in the chapter "house"?
>> i've seen a few drawerings of tombs in the walls of choirs (there are the
quite nice sculpted [architectural] remains of at least one pre-1150 example
at Pontigny --Hugh of Macon, i believe), but in chapter houses?
> Burial in a chapter house was, I believe, quite normal in an English
monastic context.
yeahbut, the "English monastic context" was not entirely "normal," was it?
esp. if you include that curious, kinky institution of "monastic" cathedral
chapters.
>But only the Carthusians seem to have had altars in
their chapter houses.
now that i think about it --and i'd have to look at my charters again to be
sure-- there were perhaps quite a few [Benedictine] charters (11th-12th c.)
which mention a "gift" (usually a knife, _cutellum_ or a "baton" _baculum_)
being placed "super altar[e?]" as a symbol for the gift [usually of property]
which is being "memorialized" in the text of the charter.
as i understand it, the gift (of property) was made verbally before the
chapter and other witnesses (ex botha partes) --usually "in capitulum"-- and
was "memorialized" in the charter written for that specific purpose, and
solemnized by the symbolic offering which was placed "on the altar."
ergo, there was an altar in the place where the chapter was meeting ("in
capitulum") --wherever the hell that might have been.
ergo sum, the meeting either took place in [a chapel of] the church, or there
was an altar in the "chapter house[/room]" --or the meeting was held before or
after the ceremony of "gift giving" occurred (in the church, "super altare
Sancti Petri," or wherever), and the record was made (and read out?) in the
chapter meeting (later)?
i never paid much attention to the tenses of the verbs used in the text, which
might make this sequence of events somewhat clearer.
c
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