medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: Henk <[log in to unmask]>
> I can imagine this very well.
whatever "this" might be.
>First time I tried to read it,
the "it" here is The White Goddess.
>somewhere in the eighties, I couldn't finish it. But during the nineties it
was like my eyes were opened and I raced through it.
i had copies come through my hands back in my BackSliding Bookdealer
incarnation, tried to read in it a bit, but lost interest, for some reason
--but not because i found his kinky "theories" particularly objectionable; on
the contrary, they seemed quite well within the realm of possibility (which is
not to say that they are true, necessarily).
i think that Graves is one of those writers who tends to Think in Whole
Thoughts, and to really appreciate what he's About requires a certain level of
maturity on the part of readers who's attention span has been mutilated by
TeeVee and its Corporate Kulture.
for some of us, unfortunately, that requisite level isn't arrived at until
Advanced Middle Age (if then).
i'll be looking forward to picking TWG up again, sometime in my
Fast-Approaching Golden Years. i think that i might have an old paperback
copy bouncing around at home.
>Reread it a couple of times too.
that sometimes helps.
> Recently I browsed through it again and some parts I could not put down. It
still grabbed me.
>I've found his Claudius very moving and funny too.
the (BBC) TeeVee series some years ago was definitely not half bad --and not
without considerable humour, as well ("What, a smelly old thing like *you*, a
Goddess??" --Caligula to Livia, reneging on a promise he made to Deify her).
there was also a very interesting 1937 film made (but unfinished, for some
reason)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0028723/
with Laughton, Oberon, Emlyn Williams and Robert Newton, directed by von
Sternberg and produced by Alexander Korda, which i would love to see, but have
only seen little snippets of in a documentary included on one of the DVDs of
the TeeVee series.
that film looks like a treat.
> At the time I read it 20 years ago I was aware of the Myths book as well,
but I never managed to find it. The innernet should make it easier now.
yes, as i said earlier, The Innernets is the Ultimate Pons Asinorum, and i
know that i speak for all of us Asinors when i say, Thank Dog for it.
>I think I'm going to try it again. Thanks for reminding me about it.
i believe that the original publication was as a two vol. paperback set put
out by Penguin in 1955 --though those were (unusually) *sewn* paperbacks, the
quality of the paper was such that they are nowadaze thoroughly yellowed
and/or brittle.
but, in the U.S., George Braziller put out a very nice (unabridged, but single
vol.) ed. of it about the same time --same format as the pb. ed. and, thus,
quite handy to use.
that's the ed. i have and the one i very, very highly recommend (well worth
the extra dough).
look for it on
http://bookfinder.com
*all* the Penguin pb. eds. will be on crappy paper.
be careful to insure that you're getting, either both vols. (pb.) or the
complete/unabridged 1 vol. ed in hb.
you should be able to pick one up in the $15-20 range, post included.
i haven't seen the Doubleday "illustrated" ed., but wouldn't recommend it,
sight unseen.
bonne chance.
>BTW: The 'groves' thing is in the White Goddess too, you know.
yes, as best i can make out, the Essence of Graves' thesis was that there was
a single, European-wide, prehistoric culture --thoroughly Matriarchal in
character and intimately tied to the worship of the Mother Goddess and the
downright Bizarre belief in the Sacredness of Nature (trees and suchlike
being, of course, integral to its practice).
this culture was largely displaced (or, overlaid), in Greece, by Dorian
Invasions of the bronze age, which progressively brought all sorts of Nasty
stuff like Patriarchy, the Overthrow of the Mother Goddess, Warfare, Sliced
Bread, etc., and, ultimately, Catastrophic and Odious Disasters like, say,
Christianity.
perhaps i'm reading a bit too much into Graves, however.
i'll have to go back to the Source, take a breath, and calm down a bit.
c
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Namens Christopher Crockett
> Verzonden: donderdag 27 januari 2011 19:48
> Aan: [log in to unmask]
> Onderwerp: Re: [M-R] Dating yew trees (WAS: Re: [M-R] double monasteries)
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> From: Henk <[log in to unmask]>
>
> > You should try and read the White Goddess by Graves, Chris, both Flaky
and
> Pretty Interesting at the same time.
>
> i've tried, several times, to get through it, Hank, without complete
success
> --maybe the subject just doesn't interest me as much as that covered by The
> Greek Myths does, which latter work i've found myself dipping into every
few
> months (over the last few decades), for some reason or another, and have
> also
> found it progressively more difficult to extricate myself from each time i
> do
> so, so fascinating and inter-woven is the "story" he's laying out there
> (it's
> actually something of a reference work, but one which can be read as a
> continuous narrative, at least to a certain extent).
>
> he is, among other things, dispelling much of the "mythology" which
> surrounds
> the subject of The Greek Myths, and, i believe, does so quite admirably.
>
> in any event, Grave's comments about certain trees/groves being sacred to
> certain "gods" and/or ethnic groups (and why) i find to be quite
compelling.
>
> c
>
>
> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> > Van: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
> culture
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Namens Christopher Crockett
> > Verzonden: donderdag 27 januari 2011 19:21
> > Aan: [log in to unmask]
> > Onderwerp: Re: [M-R] Dating yew trees (WAS: Re: [M-R] double monasteries)
> >
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> >
> > watching this little string go bye, i realized that i had no idea what a
> yew
> > tree might look like, much less ever having dated one (they're just not
my
> > type, i suppose, being more of a Walnut kind of Guy, myself).
> >
> > so, i looked a bit on that Ultimate Pons Asinorum, The Innernets, to see
> > what
> > i might come up with.
> >
> > now, i may not know from yews, guys, but i've got a pretty good clue that
> > *this* is an old, old tree:
> >
> > http://cornishevangelist.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/sussex-west-2814.jpg
> >
> > to say nothing of being very difficult for even it's mother to date.
> >
> > for dendrochronology works at all for dating such a "muliti-stalked" tree
> as
> > this, the wood would have to be very, very dense (i.e., slow growing)
> > indeed.
> >
> >
> > what a strange creature.
> >
> > turns out that "Taxus baccata is a *conifer* native to western, central
> and
> > southern Europe..." and was at the very heart of the English Longbow
> > Military
> > Industrial Complex
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxus_baccata#Longbows
> >
> > which, ultimately, led to European-wide over yewing, with considerable
> > ecological damage by early modren times.
> >
> > this "Door of the Chapel in a Norman yew"
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LaHayeDeRoutotIf1.JPG
> >
> > has to be the favorite of this list.
> >
> > this site
> >
> > http://www.whitedragon.org.uk/articles/yew.htm
> >
> > is more-than-a-bit new-agey, but this statement
> >
> > "The Yew is sacred to Hecate, and the Crone aspect of the Triple Goddess;
> > both
> > are guardians of the Underworld, death and the afterlife"
> >
> > is surely based on the work of Robert Graves, generally thought by
> academics
> > (esp. those who have never read his works) to be somewhat of an igorint
an
> > irrelevant nutcase, but whose _Greek Myths_ (2 vols.) is, to my mind and
> > experience, a first-rate piece of work, its somewhat over-stretched
> > interpretive material perhaps to the contrary notwithstanding.
> >
> > c
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------ Original Message ------
> > Received: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 09:25:49 AM EST
> > From: Alison Goulbourne <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [M-R] Dating yew trees (WAS: Re: [M-R] double monasteries)
> >
> > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture
> > >
> > > Many thanks to chris laning for information on dating the yew trees.
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On 26 Jan 2011, at 18:03, Chris Laning <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> > > > culture
> > > >
> > > > (wearing former botanist hat ;)
> > > >
> > > > To the best of my knowledge, yew trees are dated by a combination of
> > > > dendrochronology (samples taken from what appears to be the oldest
> > > > surviving wood) and estimated growth curves. These curves are based
> > > > on abundant measurement data from surviving trunks and stumps, dates
> > > > of mention for known yews in documentary evidence, and known and
> > > > projected growth rates. AFAIK very little radiocarbon dating of
> > > > living yews has actually been done (according to my 2002 source),
> > > > and yew wood is hard enough that apparently it's notoriously
> > > > difficult to get good cores. David Bellamy is indeed a major figure
> > > > in this research.
> > > >
> > > > As with any estimates, these growth curves are only as good as the
> > > > volume and quality of the data they are based on. But there's
> > > > actually been a fairly large amount of work done on this, much of it
> > > > in the last twenty years or so. As one might expect, there's
> > > > considerable discussion of these issues among various experts, whose
> > > > estimates of dates can vary widely for the same tree.
> > > >
> > > > Although it's not a scholarly work, I recommend _The Ancient Yew_ by
> > > > Robert Bevan-Jones for a discussion of these issues. (2002, ISBN
> > > > #0-9538630-4-2)
> > > >
> > > > ____________________________________________________________
> > > >
> > > > O Chris Laning <[log in to unmask]> - Davis, California
> > > > + http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
> > > > ____________________________________________________________
> > > >
> > > >
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