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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Hi everyone,
Yes, Maddy and Christopher, I'm here but only off and on these days. Busy times. I have read some of the postings and have been trying to piece the threads together.
First, in terms of perfumed water - there is no material evidence that can be discussed. It makes sense, that if the water was soiled by an infant, and retained, that some sort of scent or salt might have been used in the water. We do know of discussions pertaining to children soiling the water when being baptised.
When addressing drainage systems, very briefly, as we are entering highly problematic areas, and without really doing extensive searches in our database, I can say that not all fonts have drainage holes. What is commonly seen in the UK with their lovely rubber bathtub stoppers (which we love) in the lead lined basins, is not found elsewhere.
For example, many of the Scandinavian fonts do not have drainage holes (and these, of course, have never been lined with lead). In fact, I did a quick search and in northern European examples (Germany, Scandinavia, UK)we have more than 300 fonts without drains from different regions, periods, etc.
When examining these works one must be careful to distinguish between genuine fonts and those that were originally never intended to be fonts and this is seldom easy to do, even on site. Remember, fonts as we see them today, were not always fonts, which confuses the picture. Many were holy water stoups, animal troughs, sarcophagi, and later used as fonts. Holy water containers had different ceremonial functions in different settings..something that has been lost in the movement of these objects.
BUT, many were originally conceived without a drain, certainly, the small stone, portable fonts must have been conceived this way, as in the case of the Conwy No. 2 / Conway No. 2, St. Mary (Aberconwy & Colwyn)Wales, 11-12th century and the later portable fonts from the 16th to the 19th century.
Larger fonts without drains appear across the Continent. For example, the font from Rathcore 12th-16th century(Co. Meath)Ireland, 6th-8th century font in Madrid No. 5 [Museo Arqueológico Nacional, originally from Martos, Jaén] (Madrid)[origininally from Martos, Jaen province, but may be originally from Toledo], the Norum (Bohuslän)12-13th century Swedish font.
Of the sunken, early Christian fonts in Spain, some have no drainage system, at least none have been located, as at Tarragona No. 1, necropolis de San Fructuoso / Tarraco (Tarragona prov.), and San Pedro de Merida / San Pedro de Mérida (Badajoz prov.).
However, other sunken fonts in the Mediterranean regions were connected to elaborate drainage and water conduit systems, as in the case of the Turkish font at Constantinople No. 2, Atik Mustafa Mescidi / Hoja Atik Mustapha Jamissi / Church of St. Peter & St. Mark (Istanbul [form. Constantinople])5th century work.
Determining the precise time or period in which a drainage hole was made also appears to be inconsistent or very difficult to determine. When you have a lower base or pedestal or sometimes a unique design, it is possible to see that the drainage hole was part of the original conception. But fonts today are often parts of different fonts, re-assembled or re-constructed over the centuries as parts were destroyed, broken or cracked.
In addition to these regional differences we also know some fonts were built near or over sacred springs which supplied ‘living water’ as in the case of these two fonts, notes taken from the BSI database:
East Dereham / Dereham / Market Dereham (Norfolk) was built over a spring, which supplied the ‘living water’ as per Tyrrell-Green (1928) who writes that the tomb of St. Withburga (†743 AD) was located near this church; when, ca. 800 AD, her relics were moved into the church, "a miraculous spring [...] is said to have issued from the grave wherein she had lain. A chapel was later built over this miraculous spring, and for many centuries water drawn from it was used for baptisms in the font within the church."
Grenoble No. 6 [in the Musée de l'Ancien Évêché] (Isère): BSI On-site notes: what remains of the old baptistry is now included in the semi-basement of the Musée de l'Ancien Évêché: a fairly large octagonal sunken font with an inner pool and a water source right in the centre, together with one of the underground conduits which supplied water to the font. The outer perimeter is believed to correspond to the older font of the Early Christian period, whereas the inner pool has been date to the 10th century. What the whole building and the font itself could have looked like can be seen in the maquettes of the baptistry made for/by the museum [cf. Images]. [NB: we are most grateful to the director and staff of the Musée de l'Ancien Évêché for their permission to access and photograph the artifacts]
I know haven’t really answered any of the specific questions. But, I hope this provides some insight into how complex this topic is. Also, I should mention that we do find plugged drainage holes – with bits of wood inserted, rocks, sand, cement, etc – and this is found in large or small fonts.
Harriet.
Dr. H. Sonne de Torrens, MA., MISt., Ph.D., L.M.S.
Rm. 3130, Ph: 905-569-4610
Communications, Culture and Technology Building
University of Toronto Mississauga
3359 Mississauga Road North
Mississauga, Ontario L5L 1C6, Canada.
-----Original Message-----
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Madeleine Gray
Sent: October-07-10 9:29 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] Baptismal Waters
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Isn't Harriet on this list as well? I was expecting a posting from her any day soon!
Maddy
Dr Madeleine Gray
Reader in History
School of Education/Ysgol Addysg
University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd
Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion,Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT, Wales/Cymru
Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675
'I ask you for help. And all you give me is ...papers!'
(Magda in Gian Carlo Menotti's The Consul)
History at University of Wales, Newport: http://timezone.newport.ac.uk
Gwent County History Association website: http://gwent-county-history-association.newport.ac.uk
Cistercian Way: http://cistercian-way.newport.ac.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Christopher Crockett
Sent: 07 October 2010 13:44
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] Baptismal Waters
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: MAUREEN A TILLEY <[log in to unmask]>
> The only way I know to check whether or not the baptismal fonts were
clearly flowing or had plugs would be to look at the drains of any remaining
fonts from the period of the Chronicles that the chroniclers could have seen
or heard about. Do these drains show any indications of wear from a plug?
Alternatively one might extrapolate from fonts preserved from the areas/times
of the crusaders who established churches in the areas of the chroniclers or
from Byzantine churches. I do not know enough about Byzantine practices in the
area at that time to speak about this. Perhaps a historian of Byzantine
baptismal practices might guide you.
the "owner" of the MedArt discussion list, Harriet MSonne, is a specialist in
fonts from Denmark, but probably knows quite a bit about the species in
general, and could certainly help with references to begin trolling.
join the list and float the question,
http://homes.chass.utoronto.ca/~hsonne/MedartL/
she'll be sure to answer.
c
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