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Subject:

Re: A new approach to the median

From:

"Wells, Julian" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Wells, Julian

Date:

Wed, 9 Jun 2010 17:04:59 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (212 lines)

Thanks to John, not only for his comments, but for providing an electronic source for Russell (I originally had to get the BL's copy on ILL); re-reading Russell it seems clear from the succeeding sentence ("just as much money would be paid by landlords to farmers, as would be paid by farmers to landlords") that he actually has the arithmetic mean in mind.

Julian

________________________________________
From: John Bibby [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 09 June 2010 11:37
To: Wells, Julian
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: A new approach to the median

Sorry again but ....

I've just looked up Russll's orioginal quote - it's at
http://www.archive.org/stream/germansocialdem00russgoog#page/n39/mode/1up/search/average

As you can see, the word 'half-way' is redundant - his argument (that some will be (halfway) above the average and others will be below) holds  even if the average is between the highest and lowest.

JB






On 9 June 2010 11:28, John Bibby <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
The Russell definition (mid-range - see below) is one definition of average but not necessarily the best. Mid-quartile or mid-decile is rather better (less sensitive).

For masochists who may be interested,  I did  something on "axiomatisations of the average" in GMJ some time ago (see below)
http://www.google.co.uk/search?num=100&hl=en&rlz=1C1GPEA_enGB308GB308&q=bibby+axiomatisations+average&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
but I would not really recommend this.

For the current poverty debate however, it does not matter which average we take. The important thing politically is to focus on
 x%   times average
as the important threshold.

Sticking with the current measure has advantages of statistical comparability, over both space and time, but is not sacrosanct.

Other related issues:

1. I like Clegg's  "20 times" rule - max < 20 times the min - but what organisational unit does it relate to? and does it apply to private as well as public sector? There's also the issue of non-salary incomes and gains.

2. I note that Spain has reduced all public service salaries by 5%. I could go along with a progressive variant of that e.g. "all salaries over £1000 per month are reduced by x%" where x% could start at 1% and increase monthly to a maximum (in order to ease the pain). I'm sure that Saint Vince has got this in his sights. (Why has he gone quiet?)

3. I heard pensions being bashed this morning - are the buggers going for that now?

4. What about wealth?


<http://www.google.co.uk/search?num=100&hl=en&rlz=1C1GPEA_enGB308GB308&q=bibby+axiomatisations+average&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=>'Disgusted' of York






“... the average, by definition, lies half-way between the best and the worst ... ” (Russell 1896: 19, footnote).

    Bertrand Russell (1896/1965) "German Social Democracy", George Allen and Unwin, Woking and London

On 9 June 2010 09:48, Wells, Julian <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Confusion over the basic measures of central tendency is not unheard of in (intellectually) high places, as well as political ones: here is Bertrand Russell:

“... the average, by definition, lies half-way between the best and the worst ... ” (Russell 1896: 19, footnote).

    Bertrand Russell (1896/1965) "German Social Democracy", George Allen and Unwin, Woking and London

Although his empirical description of the party and its doings has its strengths (he notices that its practice was already reformist, despite the revolutionary rhetoric), the great man's self-assured aversion to dialectics leads him to dispense with the effort of engaging with its practitioners.

He sums up Capital as “tedious economico-Hegelian pedantry” (1896: 10), and opines that “the two later volumes add little to Marx’s system” (1896: 15, footnote); whatever one thinks of the work as a whole, few professional economists with any knowledge of the text would agree to the latter judgement.

Julian Wells



Dr Julian Wells
Acting Director of Studies
School of Economics

staff web-page: http://fass.kingston.ac.uk/staff/cv.php?staffnum=287
personal web-site: http://staffnet.kingston.ac.uk/~ku32530

Senior lecturer in economics
School of Economics
Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
Kingston University
Penrhyn Road
Kingston-upon-Thames
KT1 2EE
United Kingdom

+44 (0)20 8417 2285
________________________________________
From: email list for Radical Statistics [[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Martin Rathfelder [[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
Sent: 09 June 2010 09:13
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [RADSTATS] A new approach to the median

There are very few people in the UK who suffer from absolute poverty.
Mostly failed asylum seekers who are subject to an official destitution
policy - and won't appear on any statistics.  Some people with mental
illness.

Most of the poor in the UK have a colour TV.  Quite a few are
overweight.  They probably have debts.  People who are absolutely poor
don't have debts.

Yes relative poverty is a political issue.  But it is a problem about
the rich.

Martin Rathfelder
Director
Socialist Health Association
22 Blair Road
Manchester
M16 8NS
0161 286 1926
www.sochealth.co.uk<http://www.sochealth.co.uk>

If you do not wish to be on our mailing list please let us know and we will remove you



John Whittington wrote:
> At 08:09 09/06/2010 +0100, Martin Rathfelder wrote:
>> If the problems of poverty in the UK are about relative poverty, why
>> will reducing the incomes of the rich not help?
>
> That surely hits the nail on the head.  IF the problems were about
> relative poverty, then that would, indeed, be the obvious solution.
>
> However, relative poverty (within a country) is really essentially a
> political/ psychological issue ('sour grapes'), not a humanitarian one
> - e.g.a person who can't afford to feed their children properly
> feeling aggrieved because others were in a much better position.
> Maybe their psychology would feel a bit better if one changed the
> situation such that no-one else could feed their children properly,
> either, but that's hardly a solution - and wouldn't result in an
> improvement in their children's nutrition!
>
> At the most basic level (virtually 'human rights' - access to adequate
> food, shelter, healthcare, protection, education etc.), the poverty
> that matters is surely absolute, not relative?
>
> Kind Regards,
>
>
> John
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Dr John Whittington,       Voice:    +44 (0) 1296 730225
> Mediscience Services       Fax:      +44 (0) 1296 738893
> Twyford Manor, Twyford,    E-mail:   [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
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