medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
As did Guğmundr Arason, bishop of Hólar
I´d love more info on this
Meg Cormack
-----Original Message-----
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dr Jim Bugslag
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 10:23 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] new priest in 1219
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Weren't ashes used in monastic funeral rites? St Louis famously died on
a bed of ashes, as well.
Cheers,
Jim
John Briggs wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> I think we've had this question before (and I think the question
> revolved around whether a woman could act as server...): water and
> salt would be used for any mass - the fire would just be fire: i.e.
> for lighting candles, rather than for the ashes. The only time that I
> can think of ashes being employed would be on Ash Wednesday.
>
> John Briggs
>
>
> On 30/03/2010 19:28, Madeleine Gray wrote:
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>> culture
>>
>> I issed a bit of this strand but I'm struck by the references to
>> salt, water and ashes. Is this specific to the rite for the
>> consecration of a church, or of a priest? I ask because of a
>> reference in the first, anonymous, vita of the Welsh saint Gwenfrewi
>> or Winifred. At a key point in the story her tutor, Beuno, and her
>> family, have gone to church but she is still in the house preparing
>> fire, water and salt for the service. What kind of service would this
>> have been, and what is her role as the person who brings the salt and
>> water and (presumably) the ashes from the fire?
>>
>> Maddy
>>
>> Dr Madeleine Gray
>> Reader in History
>> School of Education/Ysgol Addysg
>> University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd
>> Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion,
>> Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675
>>
>> 'We are not bound to win but we are bound to be true' (Barack Obama)
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
>> culture on behalf of Stan Metheny
>> Sent: Tue 30/03/2010 6:25 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [M-R] new priest in 1219
>>
>>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>> culture
>>
>> FYI, most of this is still in the Roman Rite today, at least in the
>> 1962 Pontifical (aka Extraordinary Form). Many (most?) of the
>> medieval elements are still in there. Earlier this month there was a
>> rare opportunity to witness (via online video) this rite, including
>> the elements Cate mentions, being celebrated in the consecration of
>> the new chapel of Our Lady of Guadalupe seminary in Denton, Nebraska
>> (US). [The DVD has just been made available
>> http://www.fsspolgs.org/dvd.html. Some good commentary - and some not
>> so great commentary - was included with the live broadcast, as well
>> as the Latin and English texts in a separate pdf. These may be on the
>> DVD as well.]
>>
>>
>>
>> As for the symbolism of the elements in the Gregorian water, the
>> traditional explanation is available in various online sources, and
>> is usually along these lines. Salt is a symbol of wisdom, which is
>> the power coming out of the cross, which the heavenly source of new
>> life leads out into the world. Ashes are a symbol of penance. The
>> salt is mixed with the ashes, then both with the water. Where the
>> power coming from above mixes with the penitential acts, then the
>> water of heavenly life is stirred. Lastly wine is blessed and mixed
>> with the water, for that spring fructifies to grace and life in God.
>>
>>
>>
>> Stan Metheny
>>
>>
>>
>> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
>> culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cate Gunn
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 12:45 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [M-R] new priest in 1219
>>
>>
>>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>> culture
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> According to Dominique Iogna-Prat, La Maison Dieu. Une histoire
>> monumentale de l'Eglise au Moyen Age (v.800-v.1200) (Paris, 2006) --
>> which I believe I learned about from someone on this list -- this is
>> part of the consecration rite that arose during the Carolingian
>> period, and was performed by the officiating bishop, who entered the
>> church alone while the rest of the officiants waited outside with the
>> relics to be inserted in the altar. After inscribing the alphabets
>> on the floor of the church, he exorcised, blessed and mixed the salt,
>> water and cinders used for the aspersion of the church. He also
>> prepared the mortar with which the relics would be sealed into their
>> confessio in the altar. Finally, he blessed the whole building, its
>> ornaments, vestments and liturgical vessels. He then left the church
>> to join the other officiants outside, and after a litany and the
>> blessing of the principal entrance, and a relic procession around the
>> church, he preached a sermon before leading the procession with
>> relics into the church.
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This is very much the sort of thing I've read in the Pontificales -
>> except the bishop enters the church with all the clergy after
>> knocking on the door three times and calling 'Tollite portas'. One
>> deacon had previously entered and closed the door. He responds 'Quis
>> est rex glorie' and the third time the bishop answers, 'Dominus
>> uirtutum ipse est rex glorie'.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I suppose my next question will be about the significance of salt,
>> water and ashes - symbolising life and death I presume?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> thank you everyone for your help so far! especially Rosemary for
>> pointing me in the direction of episcopal registers - I'm pretty
>> sure, although we're in the north of the county, the parish was in
>> the London diocese.
>>
>> Cate
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> AndrewLarsen wrote:
>>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarlydiscussions of medieval religion
>> and culture
>>
>>
>>
>> Might the use of the abcedarium be related to Christ's status
>> as the Alpha and the Omega, ie the totality of the alphabet?
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew E. Larsen
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 30, 2010, at 7:34 AM, John
>> Briggs<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
>> religion and culture
>>
>>
>>
>> On 30/03/2010 12:04, Cate Gunn wrote:
>>
>> The consecration ceremonies (in the 10th cent.
>> Pontificale Lanaletense and the 12th century Pontifical of Magdalen
>> college) require the 'abcdarium' to be inscribed in the corners of
>> the church - would this be the whole alphabet? What was the
>> significance of this?
>>
>>
>>
>> The abcedarium (the whole alphabet) is inscribed (in
>> ashes or sand) diagonally across the church from corner to corner,
>> once in the Latin alphabet and the other time in the Greek alphabet.
>> What was the significance of this? Well, the best guess (see John
>> Wordsworth, On the Consectration of Churches, Especially in the
>> Church of England: A Lecture [1899]) is that this is replicating the
>> initiation ceremonies (baptism, confirmation, first communion) i.e.
>> welcoming the church building as a member of the Christian community!
>> The earliest ordos have the catechism with elements (e.g. the Creed)
>> in both Latin and Greek.
>>
>>
>>
>> John Briggs
>>
>>
>>
>> Cate
>>
>> [log in to unmask]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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