medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Oops, sorry. I meant portionary rather than proportionary.
Dr Jim Bugslag wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> Many thanks to John and Graham for their information on proportionary
> churches. In (badly understood) layman's terms, would that mean that
> a proportionary church is a church with a divided advowson? Graham's
> answer calls to mind the many foundations in the 11th and 12th
> centuries, of both monasteries and collegiate foundations, made by a
> noble with an Eigenkirche on his property which functioned as a parish
> church both before and after the foundation (the rationale for which,
> I believe, was the increasing sense of inappropriateness of laymen
> collecting church tithes). But I might be jumping to unwarrented
> conclusions here.
> Cheers,
> Jim
>
> Graham Jones wrote:
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>> culture
>>
>> Dear All
>>
>> John [Freeman] was being carefully punctilious in describing Bromyard
>> and Ledbury as portionary churches, but his apology for using the term
>> 'collegiate' is not really necessary because 'portionality' (if one can
>> use that word) is one of the markers of pre-Conquest minsters, which in
>> the main, as we know, were collegiate. Some will argue that
>> 'portionality' could be the result of church building by more than one
>> player, a church built by two or more lords in a single vill, for
>> example, but I'm not sure in how many cases that can be demonstrated.
>> The evolution of 'portions' from canonries or prebends, by contrast, has
>> been convincingly demonstrated time after time.
>>
>> As for the 'Holywater' affix, the usage in two minster parishes on two
>> separate rivers but in a regionally particular part of the country (a
>> point I'll come back to tomorrow, if I may), points to an explanation
>> that takes these conditions into account. I'm still keen to point up the
>> 'church-less' nature of these vills and the nature of their pastoral
>> care. At this point I'd just like to observe the common division of
>> parishes with an organised urban core into 'borough' and 'foreign'.
>>
>> And just a word for Christine about Michael at Ledbury. Peter appears on
>> his own, without Paul, above the south door of Bromyard, and Ledbury's
>> later medieval dedication, as Christine points out, appears also to be
>> in honour of Peter. One's first guess might be that this looks like the
>> hand of Offa of Mercia, who was said to have a particular affection for
>> the apostle. However, Ledbury's early summer fair was on the feast of
>> Peter and Paul, so there at least, Paul seems to have dropped out of the
>> picture. Peter and Paul's joint cult appears to have arrived in the late
>> seventh century. Joe Hillaby has argued that Ledbury church occupied a
>> previously non-Christian site. My own guess is that Ledbury had been a
>> centre of British Christianity, as was believed by at least one later
>> medieval bishop of Hereford. In either case, we would be looking for a
>> patronal cult other than that of Peter and Paul. Michael, I would argue,
>> didn't appear from nowhere. Ledbury also had a prescriptive, four-day
>> fair which began on the feast of St Matthias, September 21, taking it
>> well into the octave before Michaelmas.
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>> Graham
>>
>>
>> ******************************************
>> Dr Graham Jones
>> St John's College (University of Oxford)
>> Oxford OX1 3JP
>> Tel: +(0)1865 280146 (with voice-mail)
>> e-Mail: [log in to unmask]
>>
>> Senior Research Associate
>> School of Geography and the Environment
>> University of Oxford.
>> Web: http://www.geog.ox.ac.uk/staff/gjones.html
>> Honorary Visiting Fellow Centre for English Local History
>> University of Leicester.
>> Web: http://www.le.ac.uk/users/grj1
>> ******************************************
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
>> culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cormack,
>> Margaret Jean
>> Sent: 16 February 2010 21:53
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: [M-R] portionary churches
>>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>> culture
>>
>> Does anyone know of similar examples? I have a reference somewhere but
>> it may
>> be to precisely this church.
>> Meg
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
>> culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John
>> Freeman
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 3:15 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Holywater in place-names
>>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>> culture
>>
>> Jim,
>>
>> This is really way beyound my competence, especially in this company,
>> but
>> Joe Hillaby describes the situation at Ledbury (in his book "Ledbury, a
>> medieval borough") thus:
>>
>> "Both Ledbury and Bromyard became portionary churches after the Norman
>> Conquest The earliest record of the appointment of a Ledbury portionist
>> is
>> in 1201 when, the see being vacant, the King granted William, archdeacon
>> of
>> Hereford, 'that portion in the church of Ledbury which Henry Bannister
>> held'. There were two such portionists. Each enjoyed quite distinct
>> portions
>> of the endowments and revenues of the church. These came to be known as
>> the
>> Upper Hall or Over Court and the Lower Hall or Nether Court estates. By
>> 1311
>> it was accepted that the two portion-ists were sinecure rectors
>> appointed by
>> the bishop; their only duties were the nomination of rhe vicar and the
>> payment of his, usually meagre, stipend. The cure of souls was the
>> responsibility of the vicar."
>>
>>
>>
>> John Freeman
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dr Jim Bugslag" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 7:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Holywater in place-names
>>
>>
>>
>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>>
>> culture
>>
>>> Dear John
>>> Might you explain what a "portionary church" is?
>>> Many thanks,
>>> Jim
>>>
>>> John Freeman wrote:
>>>
>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>>>
>> culture
>>
>>>> Two corrections to misleading statements of mine, with apologies.
>>>> Firstly, I should not have called Bromyard and Ledbury 'collegiate
>>>> churches' but 'portionary churches', of course. Secondly, I should
>>>>
>> not
>>
>>>> have said 'usually - but not always -- with the main name in the
>>>> possessive'. In fact, looking at my data again, out of a total of 31
>>>> instances of 'Holywater' between 1523 and 1547, only five have the
>>>>
>> first
>>
>>>> element in the possessive:
>>>>
>>>> Taxes 1523 (p. 41): Lyntones - , Nortonz - , Wynslowez Holywater
>>>>
>>>> Taxes 1525 (p. 109): Ledons Holywater
>>>>
>>>> Taxes 1536 (p. 142): Ledonis Holiwater [but note Wellington in the
>>>> pareche of Leudbury a few entries further on -- Wellington (Heath)
>>>>
>> does
>>
>>>> not get a Holywater addition until 1547]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [this for Graham in particular: Ledon seems to be the name of a lost
>>>> sub-parochial unit/vill/township in Ledbury parish (Ledbury Foreign),
>>>>
>>
>>
>>>> presumably centred on the River Leadon which runs north-south to the
>>>>
>> west
>>
>>>> of the town. It is Ledene iuxta Ledebur'/-bury in 1284 and 1294,
>>>>
>> perhaps
>>
>>>> to distinguish it from Upleadon in Bosbury, and villata de Ledon
>>>>
>> infra
>>
>>>> parochia de Ledbury in 1524. It is sometimes associated with Haffield
>>>>
>> (a
>>
>>>> detached part of Ledbury to the south of Donnington, where the bishop
>>>>
>> had
>>
>>>> his vineyard), so is likely to have been in the south of Ledbury
>>>>
>> Foreign.
>>
>>>> In the 1663 Militia Assessments, for instance, we have the [township]
>>>>
>> of
>>
>>>> Leadon & Hatfield.]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A possible objection to John Brigg's surmise might be that if
>>>>
>> Holywater
>>
>>>> stands for 'Bromyard' or 'Ledbury', wouldn't a more natural
>>>>
>> expression be
>>
>>>> *Holywaters Lynton (or possibly *Lynton Holywaters) etc.? But I agree
>>>>
>>
>>
>>>> that the possessive seems decidedly odd.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> More later. I'm delighted with the responses so far - more than I
>>>>
>> could
>>
>>>> have hoped for! Thank you all.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John Freeman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Jones"
>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 11:00 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Holywater in place-names
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>>>> culture
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear John and colleagues
>>>>>
>>>>> None of the usual solutions appears to work: e.g. Holywater as a
>>>>> district name, tagged on to distinguish the place from others with
>>>>>
>> the
>>
>>>>> same name. So how about the following for an off-the-wall idea,
>>>>>
>> thanks
>>
>>>>> to Christine Buckley's reminder, via Maddy, of the large parochia
>>>>> attached to each of the two minsters:
>>>>>
>>>>> As I understand it, Winslow had no church of its own, nor did Linton
>>>>>
>> or
>>
>>>>> Norton, also in the parish of Bromyard, and the same applied to
>>>>>
>> Upleadon
>>
>>>>> (which I assume is represented by 'Leadon'), Massington, Wellington.
>>>>>
>> The
>>
>>>>> last two are in Ledbury parish and Upleadon was in Bosbury parish
>>>>>
>> but
>>
>>>>> possibly in Ledbury earlier.
>>>>>
>>>>> These were all, therefore, places where the peripatetic ministration
>>>>>
>> of
>>
>>>>> holy water might have had greater than usual pastoral significance.
>>>>>
>> Is
>>
>>>>> it conceivable that the affix 'Holywater' represents a late medieval
>>>>> usage local to these two old minster parishes, near neighbours in
>>>>> eastern Herefordshire, signifying a township without a place of
>>>>>
>> worship?
>>
>>>>> Could one go further and imagine that in such parishes the office of
>>>>> holy water clerk might have evolved from a degraded canonry or
>>>>>
>> prebend?
>>
>>>>> Already by 1086 Bromyard was served not by a chapter but by two
>>>>>
>> priests
>>
>>>>> and a chaplain. Moreover, two priests at Avenbury may have
>>>>>
>> represented a
>>
>>>>> division of a single pre-Conquest parish.
>>>>>
>>>>> At Ledbury, by 1086, a priest held two-and-a-half hides and the
>>>>>
>> other
>>
>>>>> two-and-half were held directly by the canons of Hereford. A priest
>>>>>
>> with
>>
>>>>> a hide at Bosbury may have represented a similar situation to that
>>>>>
>> at
>>
>>>>> Avenbury.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bromyard's Domesday priests were the forerunners of the medieval
>>>>> portioners, clergy who shared the parish tithes. Is it possible that
>>>>>
>> the
>>
>>>>> tithes of 'Le Holywater' were payable to the parish because 'Le
>>>>> Holywater' did not contribute to these portions, but rather was a
>>>>>
>> group
>>
>>>>> of physically separate townships originally under the care of, and
>>>>> contributing to the maintenance of a cleric whose status had become
>>>>> degraded and/or his canonry/prebend had become obsolete. Since
>>>>>
>> chapter
>>
>>>>> members normally provided pastoral care for one or more chapelries,
>>>>>
>> such
>>
>>>>> a process might explain the unchurched nature of the townships in
>>>>> question.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does any of that (pun on the way) hold water? It might be worth
>>>>>
>> looking
>>
>>>>> at the later tithe history of Bromyard's constituent townships.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes
>>>>>
>>>>> Graham
>>>>>
>>>>> PS: Have you chatted about this with Sylvia Pinches, who has been
>>>>> writing/editing the recently published VCH volume on Ledbury with
>>>>> additional archival research by a group led by Janet Cooper (retired
>>>>>
>> VCH
>>
>>>>> Editor for Essex now living in Herefordshire)? If not, she's
>>>>>
>> currently
>>
>>>>> abroad but is due back soon and I can put you in touch with her.
>>>>>
>>>>> John Blair may also have some ideas, having published with Joe
>>>>>
>> Hillaby
>>
>>>>> on The Early Church in Herefordshire.
>>>>>
>>>>> A quick search for other Holywaters found Holywater Meadows at Bury
>>>>>
>> St
>>
>>>>> Edmunds, owned by the Abbey and subject to flooding. There was a
>>>>> messauge called Holywater at Milton next Gravesend in 1598 (Kent
>>>>> Archives, CKS-U386, Darell of Calehill MSS, c, 1150-1882).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ******************************************
>>>>> Dr Graham Jones
>>>>> St John's College (University of Oxford)
>>>>> Oxford OX1 3JP
>>>>> Tel: +(0)1865 280146 (with voice-mail)
>>>>> e-Mail: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>
>>>>> Senior Research Associate
>>>>> School of Geography and the Environment
>>>>> University of Oxford.
>>>>> Web: http://www.geog.ox.ac.uk/staff/gjones.html
>>>>> Honorary Visiting Fellow
>>>>> Centre for English Local History
>>>>> University of Leicester.
>>>>> Web: http://www.le.ac.uk/users/grj1
>>>>> ******************************************
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval
>>>>>
>> religious
>>
>>>>> culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John
>>>>> Freeman
>>>>> Sent: 15 February 2010 16:31
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Holywater in place-names
>>>>>
>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>>>> culture
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>
>>>>> Since I was the originator of the question about 'Holywater' in
>>>>> place-names
>>>>> on the English Place-Names List, which John Briggs kindly posted on
>>>>>
>> this
>>
>>>>> site, perhaps I might make a guest appearance to clarify things, as
>>>>> Graham
>>>>> requested?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The documents concerned are not testamentary, but are lay taxation
>>>>> documents
>>>>> (subsidies/tenths/fifteenths) in NA Class E179 (published in M.A.
>>>>> Faraday,
>>>>> Herefordshire Taxes in the Reign of Henry VIII, Hereford 2005) and
>>>>> muster
>>>>> documents in NA class E36 (transcribed by Faraday in an unpublished
>>>>> edition). They list, under each hundred, the townships under which
>>>>> collection was organized, and under them the names of the people
>>>>> assessed
>>>>> and their assessments. For example, in the 1539 Musters (E36/31)
>>>>>
>> we
>>
>>>>> have
>>>>> the heading 'The Towneship of Masynton Haliwater'. So they are
>>>>>
>> certainly
>>
>>>>> names of administrative entities and not, at least directly,
>>>>> descriptions of
>>>>> rents/dues etc. I'm sure that the affix has something to do with
>>>>>
>> holy
>>
>>>>> water,
>>>>> and not, say, with the names of streams (such as Holywell) (cf. the
>>>>> Valor
>>>>> Ecclesiasticus of 1535 (p. 42 of the Herefords section of the Record
>>>>> Commission text), where the tithes of "le Holywater" are to go to
>>>>> Bromyard)
>>>>> But why should the townships be so named, and apparently exclusively
>>>>>
>> in
>>
>>>>> lay
>>>>> documents?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for all your thoughts so far.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> John Freeman
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Graham Jones" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 3:38 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Holywater in place-names
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>>>>>
>>>>> culture
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear All
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Elaine makes a good point. I've argued in 'Saints in the Landscape'
>>>>>>
>>>>> for
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ledbury church occupying a baptismal site (mother church, St
>>>>>>
>> Michael
>>
>>>>>> dedication, church built on - if not over - a stream), and Bromyard
>>>>>>
>> is
>>
>>>>>> even more intriguing. St Peter's has a curvilinear yard around
>>>>>>
>> which
>>
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> town developed, so presumably represents the ninth-century minster.
>>>>>> However, it sits uphill from the river Frome. Just a mile south is
>>>>>>
>> St
>>
>>>>>> Mary's, Avenbury ('burh associated with the Avon' - which Ekwall
>>>>>>
>> took
>>
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>>> be an older name for the Frome but could be the generic 'afon', I
>>>>>> suppose). It's isolated in a loop of the river. This, rather than
>>>>>> Bromyard, may have been the earlier, baptismal mother church of the
>>>>>> district.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maddy's suggestion is worth taking up, too. John's post set me
>>>>>>
>>>>> thinking
>>>>>
>>>>>> about Holywells (where 'wealla' is a stream, not just the spring)
>>>>>>
>> and
>>
>>>>>> Holybournes. Holybourne churchyard, Hampshire, is the source of
>>>>>> Holybourne stream, a short tributary of the northern arm of the
>>>>>>
>> river
>>
>>>>>> Wey. I mention this in Saints in the Landscape, too, but what I
>>>>>>
>> hadn't
>>
>>>>>> realised until now is that near the source of the southern arm,
>>>>>>
>> only a
>>
>>>>>> few miles away, is another Holywater. It takes its name from a
>>>>>>
>> similar
>>
>>>>>> short tributary (or vice versa?). Divided between Headley and
>>>>>>
>>>>> Bramshott
>>>>>
>>>>>> parishes, it is mentioned in 1350 as 'la Holewatre juxta
>>>>>>
>>>>> Iveleybrigge'.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The natural mother church would be Farnham, Surrey, another
>>>>>>
>> mid-Saxon
>>
>>>>>> minster.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, two or three lines of enquiry, but the gap from the early to
>>>>>>
>> the
>>
>>>>>> late medieval is rather large...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best wishes
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Graham
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval
>>>>>>
>> religious
>>
>>>>>> culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>
>> Elaine
>>
>>>>>> Beretz
>>>>>> Sent: 15 February 2010 12:39
>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Holywater in place-names
>>>>>>
>>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>>>>> culture
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or, to build on what Graham is saying: could the designation of
>>>>>> Holywater indicate a mother church [or minster] that retains the
>>>>>>
>> right
>>
>>>>>> of baptism? Certainly baptism -- where, when, how, by whom -- was a
>>>>>>
>>>>> key
>>>>>
>>>>>> point of contention during the Reformation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Elaine
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Elaine M. Beretz, Ph.D.
>>>>>> Research Associate
>>>>>> Center for Visual Culture
>>>>>> Bryn Mawr College
>>>>>> 101 Merion Avenue
>>>>>> Bryn Mawr, PA 19010-2899
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- On Mon, 2/15/10, Graham Jones <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> From: Graham Jones <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Holywater in place-names
>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>> Date: Monday, February 15, 2010, 3:48 AM
>>>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly
>>>>>>> discussions of medieval religion and culture
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear All
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A quick search of the IHR on-line material reveals 21 cases
>>>>>>> of the word
>>>>>>> 'holywater', almost all from the sixteenth century and
>>>>>>> referring to the
>>>>>>> water in the stoup or in relation to the parish holy water
>>>>>>> clerk.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Though I have never come across it before (just shows my
>>>>>>> ignorance), I
>>>>>>> wonder if these Herefordshire cases refer to land and rents
>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>> specified places (rather than the townships themselves
>>>>>>> [Massington is a
>>>>>>> farm, I think, rather than a township]) devoted to the
>>>>>>> upkeep of the
>>>>>>> stoups or perhaps towards the payment of the holy water
>>>>>>> clerk. I'm
>>>>>>> thinking obviously of a comparison with land whose income
>>>>>>> was given for
>>>>>>> the upkeep of lights, images, chantries, etc. and/or their
>>>>>>> attendant
>>>>>>> clergy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Could we be told the actual passages and contexts, please?
>>>>>>> Are they
>>>>>>> testamentary in the main?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best wishes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Graham
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval
>>>>>>> religious
>>>>>>> culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>>>>>> On Behalf Of John
>>>>>>> Briggs
>>>>>>> Sent: 14 February 2010 17:01
>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>> Subject: [M-R] Holywater in place-names
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
>>>>>>> religion and
>>>>>>> culture
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another query from the English Place-Name List:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Could anyone suggest a reason for a curious place-name
>>>>>>> usage found in
>>>>>>> documents at the time of the Reformation?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In certain documents written between 1523 and 1547, several
>>>>>>> townships
>>>>>>> surrounding Bromyard and Ledbury in Herefordshire are
>>>>>>> fairly
>>>>>>> consistently cited with the affix "Holywater" or
>>>>>>> "Halywater", usually -
>>>>>>> but not always -- with the main name in the possessive,
>>>>>>> e.g. "Winslow is
>>>>>>> Holywatir" (= "Winslow's Holywater"). They are "Linton
>>>>>>> Holywater",
>>>>>>> "Norton Holywater" and "Winslow Holywater." (near
>>>>>>> Bromyard), and "Leadon
>>>>>>> Holywater.", "Massington Holywater." and Wellington
>>>>>>> Holywater." (near
>>>>>>> Ledbury). Also, in the Valor Ecclesiasticus of 1535 , the
>>>>>>> tithes of "le
>>>>>>> Holywater" are to go to Bromyard. The usage has not been
>>>>>>> found before or
>>>>>>> after this period, and the documents were created at
>>>>>>> different times and
>>>>>>> by different persons during the reign of Henry VIII. Both
>>>>>>> Bromyard and
>>>>>>> Ledbury were collegiate churches, and Bromyard certainly,
>>>>>>> and Ledbury
>>>>>>> possibly, were Anglo-Saxon minsters. The named places were
>>>>>>> townships in
>>>>>>> Bromyard and Ledbury parishes."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John Briggs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>> **********************************************************************
>>
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