medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: Jon Cannon <[log in to unmask]>
> Liking, as I do the cuts of both your jibs,
whatever.
>I can only add in response that (for example) Bede in his accounts of the
English Church and People and Lives of diverse saints; and Eddius Stephanus in
his life of Wilfrid; are by the by rather specific about church architecture,
about paintings, about glass - but they don't mention standalone figure
sculpture.
obviously, that's because buildings, paintings and glass were all novelties,
while standalone figure sculpture was by then ubiquitous, having been around
for donkeys' years, and wasn't considered worthy of even mentioning --it was
just taken for granted.
> .. do they mention standalone crosses??...
no, those were all later forgeries.
> Jon: sitting here in Wessex, on the fence.
that doesn't sound very comfortable, Jon.
c
> > Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:30:04 -0500
> > From: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [M-R] Feasts and paintings
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> >
> > From: Dr Jim Bugslag <[log in to unmask]>
> >
> > > The, granted, very interesting tradition of Hiberno-Saxon stone crosses
> > apart,
> >
> > take them apart if you wish, Jim (you closet Philistine), but their
relatively
> > high quality and sophistication strongly suggest that "they did not suck
> > themselves out of their own fingers" (as Panofsky's teacher, Wilhelm Voge
once
> > said, in another --but not entirely unrelated-- context).
> >
> > au contraire, ma frere, i'd say that the burden of proof lies with those
who
> > would suggest that the monumental, sculpted stone crosses were one-off
flukes,
> > appearing outside of any related material context or tradition --and a
rather
> > broad one at that, most likely made up of exemplars in multiple other
media,
> > the relative fragility of which has led to those exemplars disappearing
> > without a trace (save, of course, for the --admittedly indirect-- evidence
of
> > the cross sculptures).
> >
> > and that particular negative will be a tough nut to prove, even for a
> > Canaduhian Philistine.
> >
> > >even documentary references to "free-standing" religious statuary only
begin
> > to appear in Carolingian documents,
> >
> > hardly "proof" that suchlike statuary did not exist.
> >
> > btw, how many pre-Carolingian "documentary references" do we have to,
say,
> > frescoes?
> >
> > or "ivory" carving?
> >
> > or glass windows?
> >
> > or buildings _qua_ buildings?
> >
> > or, for that matter, to decorated manuscripts?
> >
> > >and as for actual survivals,
> >
> > "actual survivals" surely represent a tiny, minuscule percentage of what
once
> > existed.
> >
> > that's my only point.
> >
> > >the late 10th-century Gero Crucifix is quite an early example.
> >
> > an early *surviving* example, you mean to say.
> >
> > >The other prominent early category besides Crucifixes are
> > statues of the Virgin and Child, which are also rare before the 11th
century.
> >
> >
> > "surviving exemplars of which are also rare," you mean to say.
> >
> > >And figural reliquaries, too, fit this same chronological
> > pattern.
> >
> > (tediously) ditto.
> >
> > >Certainly, it was only in the 13th century that any
> > substantial number of statues of the saints begin to appear within
churches.
> >
> > yes, if we could merely judge by the SURVIVING exemplars.
> >
> > though, in the case of saints' statues other factors --liturgical,
> > hagiographical, etc.-- might well explain the possible absence of
exemplars in
> > the [surviving] pre-13th c. record.
> >
> > best (from the Philistine-cleansed Hills of Southern Indianer),
> >
> > c
> >
> >
> > > Christopher Crockett wrote:
> > > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
culture
> > > >
> > > > i should think the point of the crosses adorned with sculpted figures
is
> > that,
> > > > simply, they exist --and therefore prove the existence of figural
> > sculpture
> > > > (at least relief sculpture) at that date (whatever the date of the
> > crosses
> > > > is).
> > > >
> > > > that being the case, the bald statement that "As for images, there
> > wouldn't
> > > > have been statues in churches that early" would seem to be a bit of a
> > stretch,
> > > > even if amended to read "there wouldn't have been *free-standing*
statues
> > in
> > > > churches that early."
> > > >
> > > > certainly none have survived --but then very, very little has
survived
> > from
> > > > that dark epoch, save for a few buildings, some manuscripts, some
> > metalwork,
> > > > some "ivory" carvings, a paltry few frescoes(?), and even more paltry
few
> > > > glass window fragments... the quality of all of which seems to be
> > generally
> > > > quite high, suggesting a *much* larger mass of artifacts, 99.997% of
which
> > (by
> > > > my careful count) have simply been lost without a trace.
> > > >
> > > > stone sculpture would have had the best chance for surviving, of
course,
> > but,
> > > > given the evident quality of the sculptures on the crosses we should
> > assume
> > > > sculpture once existed in other, much more fragile media --stucco,
> > "ivory,"
> > > > wax, and, certainly most ubiquitously, wood.
> > > >
> > > > statues which were "free-standing" can't really be ruled out, given
the
> > state
> > > > of our knowledge (or, more precisely, of our ignorance).
> > > >
> > > > c
> > > >
> > > > ------ Original Message ------
> > > > Received: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 07:12:59 PM EST
> > > > From: Dr Jim Bugslag <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > Subject: Re: [M-R] Feasts and paintings
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> > culture
> > > >>
> > > >> Good point, George,
> > > >> The tenor of Meg's original question, though, suggested
free-standing
> > > >>
> > > > statues within churches, which were a much later development. If
> > anything,
> > > > the standing crosses were probably replacements for churches, rather
than
> > > > decorations of them.
> > > >
> > > >> Cheers,
> > > >> Jim
> > > >>
> > > >>> And of course the great standing crosses, such as Ruthwell and
> > Bewcastle
> > > >>>
> > > > in England, and in Ireland, often feature sculpted figures and texts.
> > > >
> > > >>> GHB
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 2:05 PM, Dr Jim Bugslag wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> > > >>>>
> > > > culture
> > > >
> > > >>>> Meg,
> > > >>>> According to Bede, Benedict Biscop brought back more from Rome
than
> > > >>>>
> > > > chants: he apparently brought the cantor of St Peter's. I can't
comment on
> > the
> > > > liturgical aspects of your question, although certainly Marian feasts
> > were
> > > > becoming established in Rome during the 7th century. As for images,
there
> > > > wouldn't have been statues in churches that early. Bede, however,
claims
> > that
> > > > many panels were
> > > > brought from Rome, and describes in some detail the "programme" of
images
> > in
> > > > the church at Jarrow. I know this has been written about recently
> > (Richard
> > > > Gameson?), but don't have any references at hand.
> > > >
> > > >>>> Cheers,
> > > >>>> Jim
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Cormack, Margaret Jean wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> > > >>>>> culture
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Greetings all,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> The discussion of the Purification has reminded me of something I
> > > >>>>> have wondered about for some time, and I’ll ask it now. We know
that
> >
> > > >>>>> Benedict Biscop brought back to England the “chant for the
> > > >>>>> liturgical year as it was sung in Rome” around 680. My question
is
> > > >>>>> not about the singing, but about what the liturgical year would
have
> > > >>>>> looked like at that time. What were the main feasts that would
have
> > > >>>>> been celebrated in Rome? In England, if different? What about art?
> > > >>>>> Do we have any idea of the decoration of churches (in particular,
> > > >>>>> statues or murals of saints or biblical episodes) at this time?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Meg
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> *From:* medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval
> > > >>>>> religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On
> > > >>>>> Behalf Of *Revd Gordon Plumb
> > > >>>>> *Sent:* Monday, November 30, 2009 11:51 AM
> > > >>>>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> > > >>>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > > >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [M-R] Changing description of 2 February
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> > > >>>>> culture
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Rosemary
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I forgot to mention that in the late medieval period scenes of the
> > > >>>>> Purification were mostly accompanied by a procession of folk
bearing
> > > >>>>> candles. Curiously enough I have recently been scanning an image
of
> > > >>>>> this in the 12thC glass in the central west façade window at
> > > >>>>> Chartres, devoted to the Childhood and Life of Christ.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Gordon
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
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