Hi all,

That was a great debate and so right that it should be on a case by case
basis.  I know as a developer having both worked on OS systems and in-house
jobs that I'd go for something well documented and with support behind it
(whether from a company or community) every time.  That's the key in many
ways, whether you use an agency, in-house web guys or freelancers, that a
project can be easily be picked up by someone else down the line.  Dan's
solution sounds promising - perhaps along the lines of Expression Engine,
which I know a lot of people that swear by.

In terms of Open Source systems, if you haven't seen it already, you might
find http://www.cmsmatrix.org/ useful to compare and contrast systems.  You
might also find http://php.opensourcecms.com/ useful in terms of quickly
giving them a go without having to do loads of set-up for yourselves.

IMO, I found Joomla (and Mambo) a little frustrating to work with -
especially the menu system, which seems very inflexible.  Wordpress can very
easily cope with being a fairly decent, small-scale CMS too...

Hope that helps,


Dan

-----------------------------------------------
Dan Donald
Here in the Hive
07870 156944

http://hereinthehive.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/hereinthehive
http://twitter.com/hereinthehive



On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:10:09 -0000, Tom Jenkins
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Museums Computer Group [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>> Dan Zambonini
>> Sent: 11 November 2009 15:56
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: CMS recommendations
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Our product is 'commercial open source', therefore you'd be fine with
>> all of
>> your questions (i.e. you can hack away to your hearts content, you get
>> all
>> the source code, you can distribute any changes you make to other
>> customers,
>> you can employ any supplier to work on it). We've even built specific
>> interfaces into the system to make it easier to share modules.
>> 
>> The only *real* difference is you pay a fee up-front to get the code,
>> and
>> you can't re-sell/distribute the code to other people who haven't paid
>> for
>> it (we have a full-time team of 9 expert developers working on it
>every
>> single day, who we need to pay). In my opinion, that's a small price
>> for the
>> increased usability (we spent over 2 man-years on the user experience
>> design) and, arguably, a better architecture and delivery model than
>> any
>> open source system I've used.
>
>This is why I said 'proprietary', not 'free' :) I totally agree with the
>support side, and I also don't have a problem with people making money
>from software they've written! I was only trying to get across (rather
>badly, in hindsight; it's been a long day) my fears of proprietary
>lock-in. I think it's great that there exist companies like yours who
>embrace the spirit of OS but make money off it too, and would much
>rather recommend that than an entirely closed solution. I do think,
>however, if one has the web developers and time, it's not a bad idea to
>invest in using a FOSS system like Drupal or Joomla, over a commercial
>OS system.
>
>Never meant to come across as a bearded, antlered advocate, either,
>sorry if I did!
>
>> 
>> It sounds like a sales pitch, I apologise; that's not why I wanted to
>> get
>> involved in this conversation.
>> 
>> I find it ridiculous, actually, that we're still having the 'open
>> source vs
>> paid' argument in 2010, about forty years after it surfaced. I love
>> open
>> source apps in some contexts; in others, I prefer paid software. I
>> would
>> never use Windows (which has more software available) or Linux (which
>> gives
>> me the source code) over my beloved Mac, because my time and enjoyment
>> is
>> more valuable (to me) than the price difference, or the lock-in.
>> 
>> And on that note, I give up. Each to their own.
>> 
>> Dan
>> 
>> PS Sea Your History - pretty cool.
>> 
>> 
>> On 11/11/2009 15:28, "Hayden Young" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> 
>> > Dan, if I purchase your product and a few months later we have a
>> falling
>> > out, who do I go to for continued support of my system? What about
>if
>> I want
>> > to find a cheaper supplier?
>> >
>> > What about if I find that the system almost does what I want it to
>do
>> but I
>> > need to make some hacks to the core? What about if I want to
>> distribute
>> > those hacks to a number of museums that are using the same system?
>> What
>> > about if I fix some bugs and want to distribute those fixes to other
>> users?
>> >
>> > Now, which system do you think is more flexible? The free and open
>> source
>> > one, or your proprietary one?
>> >
>> > If you want systems that are scalable and flexible your only option
>> should
>> > be free and open source. Proprietary products are showing their
>> shortcomings
>> > time and again when it comes to performance, security and
>> reliability.
>> >
>> > As for evidence, check out the sea your history project
>> > http://www.seayourhistory.org.uk. Hosts 50,000+ multimedia assets,
>> images,
>> > sound, video, text and all on Joomla!. Hardly a simple, out-of-the-
>> box web
>> > site.
>> >
>> > Cheers
>> >
>> >
>> > Hayden
>> >
>> > On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 14:20:35 +0000, Dan Zambonini
>> <[log in to unmask]>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> First off, massive disclaimer/conflict of interest: my company
>makes
>> a CMS
>> >> (whose name I won't mention to lessen the conflict).
>> >>
>> >> I am a fan of open source systems, and use them myself on a number
>> of
>> >> personal websites. They're quick and do-the-job for a
>semi-technical
>> person
>> >> like myself who can tweak them to do what I need to run a blog or
>> simple
>> >> site.
>> >>
>> >> However, to say that they are "almost always going to be way better
>> and more
>> >> flexible and extensible than any proprietary system" is misleading.
>> >>
>> >> In the last few months, I've installed and used the most recent
>> version of
>> >> nearly every major open source PHP CMS I could find: Drupal,
>Joomla,
>> >> Wordpress MU, etc. (Our CMS is PHP, though commercial open source,
>> so this
>> >> was for competitive research).
>> >>
>> >> Each has pros and cons (I'd go as far to say that most of these are
>> NOT
>> >> flexible and extensible, with the exception of Drupal), both
>> relative to
>> >> one-another and to commercial/commercial-open-source offerings. I
>> wouldn't
>> >> say that ANY of them were more flexible or extensible than our
>> offering, or
>> >> that of a number of our commercial competitors. Sure, some have
>more
>> >> modules, but this comes with its own drawbacks (Want an events
>> calendar?
>> >> Hey, why not look through 35 of them to see if any of them work!).
>> >>
>> >> This could turn into a heated debate, which I imagine might be more
>> opinion
>> >> based than evidence based (in reality, how many of us have actually
>> used all
>> >> the open source and commercial offerings out there?), so think I'll
>> stop
>> >> now... But just wanted to put a word in for the other side!
>> >>
>> >> Dan
>> >>
>> >> PS I do *really* like Wordpress (for blogs) though. It rocks.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 11/11/2009 13:54, "Tom Jenkins"
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> From: Museums Computer Group [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>Behalf
>> Of
>> >>>> Michael Guthrie
>> >>>> Sent: 11 November 2009 12:52
>> >>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> >>>> Subject: Re: CMS recommendations
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hi Karen
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I would say that using an Open Source solution like Joomla or
>> Drupal
>> >>> is
>> >>>> most advantageous, and doesn't lock you in to inflexible,
>> proprietary
>> >>>> and unnecessarily expensive licenses from vendors.
>> >>>
>> >>> Just wanted to say - absolutely second this. One of the top open
>> source
>> >>> system like Drupal or Joomla is almsot always going to be way
>> better and
>> >>> more flexible and extensible than any proprietary system, mainly
>> because
>> >>> of the huge critical mass the contributing communities for these
>> open
>> >>> source systems tend to gather.
>> >>
>> >> ----------------------------------------
>> >> Dan Zambonini
>> >> Box UK
>> >> Internet Development and Consultancy
>> >>
>> >> t:   +44 (0)29 2022 8822
>> >> f:   +44 (0)29 2022 8820
>> >> e:   [log in to unmask]
>> >> w:   http://www.boxuk.com
>> >> ----------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Eight years in the making and more investment in usability than any
>> other
>> >> Content Management System. Visit http://www.amaxus.com and find out
>> why
>> >> hundreds of websites are powered by Amaxus.
>> >>
>> >> Registered Office Address: 6a Poland Street, London, W1F 8PT.
>> Registered in
>> >> England and Wales No. 3606919.
>> >>
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>> >>
>> >> ****************************************************************
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>> 
>> ----------------------------------------
>> Dan Zambonini
>> Box UK
>> Internet Development and Consultancy
>> 
>> t:   +44 (0)29 2022 8822
>> f:   +44 (0)29 2022 8820
>> e:   [log in to unmask]
>> w:   http://www.boxuk.com
>> ----------------------------------------
>> 
>> Eight years in the making and more investment in usability than any
>> other
>> Content Management System. Visit http://www.amaxus.com and find out
>why
>> hundreds of websites are powered by Amaxus.
>> 
>> Registered Office Address: 6a Poland Street, London, W1F 8PT.
>> Registered in
>> England and Wales No. 3606919.
>> 
>> Important Information: This message may contain confidential,
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>> 
>> ****************************************************************
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