Sorry, whaddya mean:
'...maybe this consequence wasn't recognised before the service was
launched?...'
I suspect more a case of '..we know it's a potential issue - but let's
cross that bridge when we come to it..'
I certainly raised it with online suppliers when we talked about
connection - I even had to brief one new voluntary sector supplier in
the last year on how to set up user number authenticaton and the
possible authentication pitfalls. Tthey hadn't done it before, and
hadn't talked to any other supplier...
We still haven't come to terms with all the video content we need to
stream across the public PC's inside the libraries - I had a recent
complaint from staff about the failure of video content from an online
subsciiption newspaper. I raised issues like that with the DCMS PN team
at the start -and we still haven't fixed it all.
I think there are two ways to look at this - 'pragmatic' or 'ostrich'.
The first (reasonably, I feel) says - 'let's do something. If we wait
for the 'right' solution we'll never get it off the ground. We'll fix it
later'.
The second digs the head in the sand and says 'there is no problem'.
Let's hope it's the former, and we can move forward - but to paraphrase
Mick 'who to do and what to do?'
It's a Wild West comedy (Blazing Saddles? City Slickers?) in this area
- you have to laugh or you'ld cry - and the solutions tend to lag the
ability to handle issues.
Indeed, there is a philosophy which says 'if you can do it properly,
it's obolete' - another says 'when you're on the (b)leading edge,
remember to stand behihd the blade...'
I heard a debate on Radio 4 last Friday lunchtime (no, I was off work
that day, not moonlighting in work time...) with UK TV licence payers
with slow (or no) broadband connection bemoaning the fact that they
could'nt use iPlayer when users around the world could.
The Head Honcho of such things @ the Beeb wasn't (IMHO) terribly
concilatory (the fact that they could get it out there to support the
Beeb's prestige seemed to outweigh the taxpayers concerns), but the
programme raised the issue of controls at national boundaries - which is
an echo of Mick's comment.
And in case anyone asks, no, I'm not being paid by Mick and I don't even
know him in the non-virtual world!
Ye-ha! Ride 'em Cowboy!
JU
John Usher
ICT Manager
Library and Heritage Services
Islington Council
Central Library
2 Fieldway Crescent
LONDON N5 1PF
Tel: 020 7527 6920
Mobile: 07825 098 223
Fax: 020 7527 6926
Alternative contact: Michelle Gannon - 020 7527 6907
www.islington.gov.uk
How to get to Central Library:
http://www.islington.gov.uk/Education/Libraries/Local/Central.asp
-----Original Message-----
From: lis-pub-libs: UK Public Libraries
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mick Fortune
Sent: 20 October 2009 12:46
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [LIS-PUB-LIBS] UK Public Library Initiative
Well it was the MLA that brokered the first deal so they can get their
act together sometimes...
I think the real problem here is that maybe this consequence wasn't
recognised before the service was launched? If anyone can join (and they
can) and use the service from anywhere they can access the internet (and
I was using it from the USA) there is clearly a problem. Leeds and
Brighton - to name but two of many - at least require you to visit one
of their branches to complete registration but to join Oldham or
Manchester all you need is a UK address - you don't have to prove you
live there. Of course, once you have a library card you can join any
other library service you like
- (see SCL initiative). So you can use ANY UK public library service
without ever proving UK residency. But that's another topic
altogether...
The answer would seem to be for a new deal for online services - before
it's too late to put the genie back in the bottle. But who can broker
such a deal, and how do we make it secure?
This message comes to you courtesy of 3G networking and yes, I can still
get online services from here too.
Mick
Mick Fortune
m. +44 (0)7786 625544 t. +44 (0)1865 727411
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lis-pub-libs: UK Public Libraries [mailto:LIS-PUB-
> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dash Graham
> Sent: 20 October 2009 12:07
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: UK Public Library Initiative
>
> But my understanding is that the 'Referrer' has to have some set up
> to identify where the request has come from unless it's completely
"open"
> and I can't see too many subscription providers wanting that!
> As for the 3G connection, again, if access is through the library OPAC
> it doesn't matter where in the world you are.
>
> Our "internal" subscribed database access is, as far as I'm aware, all
> via our outgoing IP addresses (2 of them). If using your Library User
> ID and PIN, whether from home or in the library makes no real
> difference as far as I can see. The providers' servers still can't see
> where in the world you are logging in from, their only concern is
> surely with the validity of your User ID and PIN.
>
> The simple solution is for a nationwide database access service, and
> as someone has already commented, this is where the MLA ought to step
in.
> But when have the MLA ever got their act together on topics like this?
> (My views entirely, and not those of my authority).
>
> Also, it would really need every library to want to provide access to
> every database, and I've had enough problems getting access to just
> one supplier's databases via our OPAC!
>
> Graham
>
> Graham Dash, MCLIP, Library Services Manager (Systems & Development)
> Environment & Leisure Group, Leisure & Libraries London Borough of
> Sutton, Central Library, St Nicholas Way, SUTTON, Surrey SM1 1EA .
>
> Tel.: 020 8770 4763, Mobile: 07515137830, Fax: 020 8770 4777
>
> Borough web site: www.sutton.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=907
> Library Catalogue web site: www.sutton-libraries.gov.uk
>
> P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Usher, John [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 20 October 2009 11:54
> To: Dash Graham; [log in to unmask]
> Subject: RE: [LIS-PUB-LIBS] UK Public Library Initiative
>
> As I understand it, unless a 'Referrer' is set up on the library OPAC
> (or is that actually the corporate website on which the OPAC link is
> placed? can it be either), the request will come from the IP allocated
> to the user's PC by their ISP?
>
> But if my ISP is registered at my home, what does the supplier see if
> I use it on a 3G connection - my home or my geographic location?
>
> And do I assume that access to online resources on a public PC in a
> library is by IP authentication? But if not, and I use my User Number
> in another authority? (I live in one london borough, close to a
> county, work in another borough, and regularly pass through two or
> three other boroughs I could use)
>
> What then?
>
> JU
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lis-pub-libs: UK Public Libraries
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dash Graham
> Sent: 20 October 2009 10:53
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [LIS-PUB-LIBS] UK Public Library Initiative
>
>
> ... And how does the online provider know you're from a different
> location? The access will probably be via the library OPAC and it's
> the referral from that that the provider's server will see, and access
> to an OPAC is available from anywhere.
>
> Graham
>
> Graham Dash, MCLIP, Library Services Manager (Systems & Development)
> Environment & Leisure Group, Leisure & Libraries London Borough of
> Sutton, Central Library, St Nicholas Way, SUTTON, Surrey SM1 1EA .
>
> Tel.: 020 8770 4763, Mobile: 07515137830, Fax: 020 8770 4777
>
> Borough web site: www.sutton.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=907
> Library Catalogue web site: www.sutton-libraries.gov.uk
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lis-pub-libs: UK Public Libraries
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Tanner
> Sent: 20 October 2009 10:39
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: UK Public Library Initiative
>
> Mick
> I'm curious! How did Manchester send you your PIN? Email or separate
> post? btw don't you think that the access logs of these online
> providers (BSI etc)are soon going to close this down? They will
> clearly show visitors from non-subscribing cities/towns etc.
> David
>
> --
>
> David Tanner
> Manager: Stock and Systems
> Adult and Community Services (Information) North Yorkshire County
> Council Library HQ
> 21 Grammar School Lane
> Northallerton
> North Yorkshire
> DL6 1DF
> Tel: 01609 533814
> Fax: 01609 780793
> email: [log in to unmask]
>
> At the moment I am reading Head-On/Repossessed by Julian Cope
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Head-Repossessed-Julian-Cope/dp/0007197756
>
> http://www.headheritage.co.uk/julian_cope/storyofthedrude/
>
>
> >>> On 19/10/2009 at 4:59 pm, in message
> >>> <001701ca50d5$1e824370$5b86ca50$@com>,
> Mick Fortune <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Returned from holiday to find more cards arrived from Oldham and
> > Manchester Libraries.
> >
> > I can't really see how either places any real restrictions on use
> that
>
> > might be in any way enforceable by the libraries. I've put pictures
> of
>
> > the cards and instructions I've received so far on my blog
> > (http://mickfortune.com/WMU/muse/2009/10/19/online-services-a-free-
> lun
> > ch/) for anyone who's interested in seeing how this works in
> practice.
> >
> > Those libraries that are still trying to maintain some semblance of
> > regulating use (like Rotherham) seem to be in danger of losing
> > ground to Oldham and Manchester. With more and more resources moving
> > online it would seem that the battle for market share of the UK's
> > online population is already underway!
> >
> >
> >
> > Mick Fortune
> > m. +44 (0)7786 625544 t. +44 (0)1865 727411
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: lis-pub-libs: UK Public Libraries [mailto:LIS-PUB-
> >> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Heaton, Mark
> >> Sent: 13 October 2009 09:06
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: Re: UK Public Library Initiative
> >>
> >> We've offered limited (2 books only) "guest" membership without
> >> need for ID for some time, so the National Membership initiative is
> >> not a major change in practice for us joining people. However, what
> doesn't
>
> >> appear to have been considered is the cost/mechanics of returning
> >> books that are brought in to us by a returning holiday maker who
> >> borrowed them from somewhere else in the "national library
> >> service"... We don't issue national library tickets (yet) either.
> >>
> >> Like many others we allow online registration but insist on
> >> collection of tickets from a library - a policy motivated by our
> >> desire for footfall/visitor figures and difficulty in accurately
> >> monitoring online usage. Online membership and use of resources
> >> online (e.g. Manchester) seems to be time limited (small print?)
> >> but it does raise the issue of national agreement on
subscriptions...
> >>
> >> Mark
> >> --------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Mark Heaton
> >>
> >> Manager, Library Service Design & Development
> >>
> >> Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council
> >>
> >> Tel:.01709 823619
> >>
> >> * <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> [log in to unmask]
> >>
> >> web. <http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/libraries>
> >> www.rotherham.gov.uk/libraries
> >>
> >> Customer Service line (01709) 336774
> >>
> >> PThink before you print - please consider the impact on the
> >> environment before printing this document.P
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: lis-pub-libs: UK Public Libraries [mailto:LIS-PUB-
> >> [log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Mick Fortune
> >> Sent: 29 September 2009 09:54
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: UK Public Library Initiative
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> It's eerily quiet here... With such a high profile day for UK
> >> public libraries yesterday I was expecting to see much more comment
> >> and opinion on this of all lists. Is there some filter operating
> >> that prevents my reading my colleague's opinions whilst I'm out of
> >> the country or is this news not perhaps as momentous as the press
> >> would have me believe?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Or is everyone overwhelmed with the demand from a
> "newly-enfranchised"
> >> public?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> One small concern - among the many that spring to mind about the
> >> SCL initiative - is the question of who now pays for online
services?
> >> Should I now be lobbying Oxfordshire to cancel their subscription
> >> to online information services because I, and everyone else in
> >> England, Wales and Northern Ireland, can now access them by joining
> >> say, Manchester online?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> How will the companies providing these services stay in business if
> >> only one authority pays a sub? I'm grateful to Manchester for
> >> giving me access to BSI data but worried that the BSI may not be
> >> able to afford to live with this state of affairs. Will Manchester
> >> council tax payers be prepared to pick up the tab for the whole
country?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Or am I missing something?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Mick Fortune
> >>
> >> m. +44 (0)7786 625544 t. +44 (0)1865 727411
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _____
> >>
> >>
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