Have to agree with Jeff on this, even though I can't really help - I
just don't know enough about English poetry of that period.
A question: why was Wordsworth the more important and lasting Romantic
influence on subsequent English poetry (if it seems he was) and not
Blake or Keats or Coleridge or Shelley (I'll leave Byron out of it)?
Or is this a chicken and egg question?
Tim A.
On 30 Aug 2009, at 16:12, Jeffrey Side wrote:
> I think you know what I mean. I'm not talking about poets or poetry in
> the way you may think matters to this debate i.e. comparatively--this
> poem/poet is better than that one etc. I'm simply talking about the
> influence of certain modes of writing that became widespread in early
> C20. It is the influence of these writing modes that are the main
> issue.
>
>
>
> On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 15:55:02 +0100, David Bircumshaw
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Jeffrey wrote:
>>> David, I'm not talking about poetry or poets<
>>
>> Uh?
>>
>> You know, there was an episode of 'Father Ted' once in which three
> bishops
>> were going to be visiting so Father Ted had to coach the booze-
> beclouded
>> Father Jack into saying 'That would be an ecumenical matter' to
> anything the
>> bishops said.
>>
>> I think I'll start doing the like: "That Would Be A Poetical Matter."
>>
>> Ah, that feels better.
>>
>> 2009/8/30 Jeffrey Side <[log in to unmask]>
>>
>>> "So I have to say I find Jeffrey's focus in itself parochial.
>>> Poetry in
>>> England had its time of greatness, and a considerable length of
> time at
>>> that, but the focus of these things moves. I'd hazard that if
>>> there is
> to
>>> be really 'significant' poetry in this century it won't be in a
>>> European
>>> language at all."
>>>
>>> David, I'm not talking about poetry or poets, as I have said
> repeatedly,
>>> but about a US/French influence that became international in the
> early
>>> C20.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 15:36:24 +0100, David Bircumshaw
>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> A point further, if I had to say who I thought the most
>>>> 'significant'
>>>> European language poets of the last century I'd unhesitatingly
> name
>>> Celan
>>>> and Vallejo, both at their best go far beyond English language
>>> modernists in
>>>> expression and connotation. It seemed so to me thirty years ago
> and
>>> still
>>>> does now. So I have to say I find Jeffrey's focus in itself
>>>> parochial.
>>>> Poetry in England had its time of greatness, and a considerable
> length
>>> of
>>>> time at that, but the focus of these things moves. I'd hazard that
> if
>>> there
>>>> is to be really 'significant' poetry in this century it won't be
>>>> in a
>>>> European language at all.
>>>>
>>>> 2009/8/30 David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>
>>>>> I wouldn't disagree that Paris was the artistic focal point. Quite
> a
>>> few of
>>>>> those Russians and Hispanics were there too.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2009/8/30 Tim Allen <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I won't push it David, it's not that important, but Paris was the
>>> focal
>>>>>> point, I don't see how anyone can argue with that really, or
> even
>>> why they
>>>>>> would want to. Spain, Russia, wherever, their eyes were on
> Paris.
>>> It was not
>>>>>> a French thing, it was an international thing, yes, but it sat in
> the
>>> middle
>>>>>> of old empires, except ours.
>>>>>> Tim A.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 30 Aug 2009, at 14:54, David Bircumshaw wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's odd, you know, but I was raised in the understanding that
> the
>>> most
>>>>>> important or 'significant' poetry in European languages in the
> first
>>> half of
>>>>>> the twentieth century was in Spanish (American and Iberian)
> and
>>> Russian (all
>>>>>> sorts of nationalities). With the Poles and the Greeks next in
> line.
>>> People
>>>>>> like Bowra and J.M.Cohen and Seymour-Smith taught me that in
>>> their writings,
>>>>>> and that English language modernist poetry (British or US or
>>> whatever) was a
>>>>>> somewhat lesser matter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2009/8/30 Tim Allen <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, ummm, it depends on what you mean by accident, and
>>> what you mean by
>>>>>>> nationality.
>>>>>>> There are some well documented reasons why France became
>>> such an early
>>>>>>> modernist hothouse, and it is not too difficult to understand
> why
>>> the US, a
>>>>>>> young country that embraced the new, followed on tentatively
>>> until after WW1
>>>>>>> when it took over. The US was this strange creature where
> the
>>> backward and
>>>>>>> the forward existed side by side - still is I suppose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tim A.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 30 Aug 2009, at 12:36, Jeffrey Side wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree. I don’t think nationality, per se, has anything to do
> with
>>> it.
>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>> is just an accident of history that modernism developed
> from
>>> the French
>>>>>>>> and US poets.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> David Bircumshaw
>>>>>> "A window./Big enough to hold screams/
>>>>>> You say are poems" - DMeltzer
>>>>>> Website and A Chide's Alphabet
>>>>>> http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk
>>>>>> The Animal Subsides
>>> http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
>>>>>> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
>>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> David Bircumshaw
>>>>> "A window./Big enough to hold screams/
>>>>> You say are poems" - DMeltzer
>>>>> Website and A Chide's Alphabet
>>>>> http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk
>>>>> The Animal Subsides
>>> http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
>>>>> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> David Bircumshaw
>>>> "A window./Big enough to hold screams/
>>>> You say are poems" - DMeltzer
>>>> Website and A Chide's Alphabet
>>>> http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk
>>>> The Animal Subsides
>>> http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
>>>> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> David Bircumshaw
>> "A window./Big enough to hold screams/
>> You say are poems" - DMeltzer
>> Website and A Chide's Alphabet
>> http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk
>> The Animal Subsides
> http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
>> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw
>>
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